Find Time For Yourself with Dan Balaban

Find Time For Yourself with Dan Balaban

Kelly Kennedy: Welcome to episode 96 of the business development podcast. And on today's expert guest interview, we are bringing you Dan Balaban, CEO and executive chair of Greengate Power, the company behind Canada's largest solar and wind projects. Stick with us. You're not going to want to miss this one.

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Let's do it. Welcome to the Business Development Podcast. And now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly Kennedy: Hello, welcome to episode 96 of the business development podcast.

And my gosh, do we have an absolutely amazing expert interview for you today? We have Dan Balaban, CEO and executive chair of Greengate Power. Dan Balaban, a visionary entrepreneur and pioneer in the Canadian renewable energy landscape. Stands at the forefront of the sustainable energy revolution as the executive chair, CEO and co founder of Greengate, a pioneering renewable energy company based in Calgary, Alberta.

Dan has spearheaded the development of large scale projects that have significantly contributed to Canada's clean energy portfolio. His leadership has been instrumental in propelling Greengate to unparalleled heights. With a track record of successfully delivering nearly 1. 5 gigawatts of operating renewable energy projects, including the nation's largest wind and solar initiatives, representing a remarkable 2 billion in investment and providing power to over half a million homes.

Dan's journey, marked by his early contributions in technology consulting realm and the subsequent establishment of Roughneck. ca, reflects his versatile expertise and unwavering commitment to driving innovation and sustainability in the energy sector. Beyond his role at Greengate, Dan's influence extends to various board memberships and strategic advisory roles, showcasing his dedication to community development and economic growth.

His dynamic engagement with organizations such as Calgary Economic Development, the Creative Destruction Lab, and advisory positions with Longbow Capital and Hempalta underscores his commitment for fostering a resilient and sustainable future. Recognized for his outstanding achievements, Dan has received numerous accolades, such as being named one of Canada's Clean 50, Resource Leader of the Year by the Alberta Chamber of Resources, and EY Entrepreneur of the Year Prairies winner.

His impactful presence is not only felt through the impressive renewable energy sector, But also in his advocacy for energy transition, economic development, and entrepreneurial spirit, making Dan an influential figure shaping the future of clean energy in Canada. Dan's story is not just one of corporate success, but a testament to the transformative power of leadership in a pursuit of a sustainable future.

With a trailblazing spirit, he continues to illuminate the path towards cleaner energy solutions, leaving an indelible mark on the industry. Dan stands as a visionary force driving change, and his impact is poised to resonate far beyond the energy sector, shaping a legacy of innovation, resilience, and environmental stewardship.

Dan, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show.

Dan Balaban: Thank you, Kelly. Thank you for having me, and thank you for that kind introduction.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, not a problem. Not a problem. Yeah, it's amazing. Thanks for reaching out to us. That was, that was really cool. And you know, when we started talking and I started to learn more about your story, like obviously being in Alberta, I've heard of Greengate, but I, you know, I mean, I didn't recognize, you know, the length of time that Greengate had been around and frankly, the influential impact that you guys have made.

Dan Balaban: Yeah, no yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It's, it's great to be operating in our home province of Alberta. This is a place. That I grew up in and I care about this province a lot. It's a great place to live and I think has the potential to continue to be prosperous for generations to come.

Kelly Kennedy: Thank you so much and congratulations for your success.

You know, I know for a fact that your story. Can't it could not have been easy. I know that for a fact being in Alberta that you know, the whole green transition thing, like you said, has been a political football for a long time. And you've been in this, like I said, you're kind of like the OG of renewables in Alberta, which is, it's really cool.

Take us back to the beginning, Dan, what led you on this path?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, well you know, starting a renewable energy company in the heart of oil country 17 years ago definitely wasn't the choice made for the easiest easiest path, but it has been has been a lot of fun, but yeah, my, my journey definitely started a lot earlier, earlier than that.

You know, so I actually was born in Toronto. I moved to Calgary when I was when I was 9 years old. But, you know, growing up in Toronto had a really really great childhood. We spent the, the week in the cities, and then on the weekend, we actually owned a family farm, so I spent my younger years playing in the dirt and driving heavy equipment and probably way too young an age.

We had but, you know, just to give you an idea, this is a really bare bones place. We didn't actually have a toilet. We had an outhouse, so we'd leave our place in the city for this you know, very bare bones place. So it really gave me an appreciation for, the fact that it's not really the material things in life that necessarily make you happy.

It's, you know, there are a lot of other things that are worth appreciating. Moved to Calgary when I was when I was nine years old. My late father, Jack, was in the resources business and got transferred out to Calgary to run an oil and gas company. So I kind of grew up, you know, here in, in Calgary in the oil and gas industry, because my father was in the oil and gas industry but, you know, also being here in in Calgary, the footsteps of the Rocky Mountains you can't help but grow a real appreciation for nature.

So, you know, environmental issues have been something that have always been important to me. pRofessionally I I studied computer science in university. I got a degree in computer science from the University of Toronto. And I actually started my career in technology consulting. So helping you know, at the time companies use this new technology called the internet.

Which really makes me feel, which really dates me, but I still feel very young. Believe me. But yeah, using this new technology called the internet to improve their businesses so that, you know, that got me involved in a lot of really cool cool projects you know, in retail, telecom, banking and then I ended up leaving consulting.

To start my own company, it was a company called Roughneck. The goal of the company was to bring this internet based technology to the oil and gas sector specifically around you know, managing operations and built that that company up. I, you know, I literally wrote the code. You know, at least the beginning, probably a million lines of code myself in in what was my one bedroom apartment at the time.

But you know, eventually you know, we're able to get it out to market and ultimately ended up being successful at our 1st success and it resulted in my 1st successful exit, which was in 2005 and Use that that capital to ultimately launch Greengate.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Wow. That is unbelievable.

You know, so. In the beginning, you know, I get it. We all start companies and we have a vision. How different is Greengate from your initial vision of it?

Dan Balaban: I'd say it's pretty consistent with, with the vision that we had from the beginning. And I'm I'd say we've, I'm really proud of what we've accomplished.

I'd say almost beyond my, my wildest dreams from when we, from when we started the company, but really, you know, our vision at Greengate is, you know, was to prove that large scale renewables. Could work in in Canada and, you know, specifically in Alberta you know, and at the time it was a pretty.

You know, pretty young industry. I wouldn't say we were the 1st. We certainly weren't the 1st in Alberta to develop renewables, but we were certainly the 1st to develop at the at the scale that we did. And you know, now that's quite commonplace.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, we were talking kind of in the initial pre chats for this show.

And I was like, man, like, that's it. That must be like a huge, huge organization. You're like, Kelly, not really. Like, what was it? You mentioned that Greengate is primarily around 12, 12 executives. Is that correct?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, we, you know, at kind of our peak, we had about a dozen people at Greengate. And really, our model is We have a management team, so basically a team of managers and what we do is we manage a whole bunch of third party consultants that do a lot of the you know, more detailed technical work if you will on our projects.

But yeah, 12 people ultimately to you know, have led the development of, you know, over 2 billion of projects is pretty, pretty cool thing.

Kelly Kennedy: Oh yeah, absolutely. And that was what I wanted to talk to you about. It's like, how in the world does 12 people do that? Cause that's amazing. That is a good use of resource.

Dan Balaban: Yeah. You know, you know, so you know hiring some really great people you know, people that that you know, work really hard, wear many hats. You know, probably at times overworked, but but, you know, but also you know, working with great partners and you know, the partners that that we work with, you know, help share some of the, some of the load.

And like I said you know, great set of third party consultants and and advisors that we've been working with. And yeah, it's, it's worked quite well for us.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. Dan run me through the first project. What was that like for you? You know, and I'm like, don't hold anything back. What is it like to, to just wake up one day and be like, yeah, we're gonna build, you know, a solar farm.

We're gonna build a wind farm and it's gonna be huge. Now what? What are the next steps? Like, how does that, what does that process even look like?

Dan Balaban: Well, maybe I could tell you the kind of the story of how we, we came up with the idea for Traverse Solar. So it's not our first project, but probably our, our most high profile project.

So you know, we've been developing wind energy in Alberta for, for quite a number of years but, you know, following trends in technology and for quite a number of years, we've been going to the solar energy conferences. And year over year, the message was you know, solar costs are continuing to come down and the point of parity is is in the not too distant future.

And you know, so went to that conference in 2017, heard that message and you know, after the conference, you know, sitting back, reflecting on it and we're like. Why don't we just build the biggest solar project that anybody's ever seen? , like, if, if, but like, seriously if, if you know, if it truly is coming down to parody in the not too distant future.

And I think it was, it was projecting 2020 and it actually did end up materializing in that way. We're like, yeah, you know, we should, we should make a big, big move into solar. And you know, we developed this this really big solar project, traverse solar. So, you know, that was the idea, you know, next we had to go, you know, find the appropriate site you know, work through the you know, the process to connect into the grid, permitting, public consultation, financing, commercial contract.

It's a multi year process, but you know, it was really, really born you know, with a bold idea. And you know, a team that was focused on on executing it and working through a lot of the naysayers along the way.

Kelly Kennedy: Absolutely. Can we talk a little bit about that? You know, one of the things that I wanted to talk about is what is required.

So you like you said, you know, okay, let's say that we have the funds and let's talk about how you raise those funds too. But. You have the funds, but that's not enough. You can't just build Canada's largest solar. What is what are the regulatory requirements? What were the naysayers? And you don't have to necessarily give names, but like, just explain maybe what's what the challenges of building a project on that scale.

Dan Balaban: Yeah, well, I mean, first off, it's difficult, you know, to find a site, you know, so you know, you ultimately need to find a site. That you know, is suitable for that sort of developmental, obviously a sunny site, a site you know, that's near transmission lines and you know, I'd say, you know, buildable, but probably most importantly, you know, community that's going to be supportive of, you know, that sort of development and, you know, fortunate that we found that in our case,

but then there's a, you know, really long regulatory process to go through environmental permits and and the like you know, public consultation, which need to ensure that everybody's concerns are addressed. And that, you know, that is a a long process as well, getting approval to connect into the grid.

That's you know, quite a complicated process and then you know, probably where I spend I'd say most of my time over the last number of years at Greengate is really trying to bring in the capital to bring it to develop this idea. So we're the developers, so we, we have the idea for the project and we spend, you know, I'd say, you know, in the millions of dollars over a number of years to turn that idea for a project.

Into something that is investable for large infrastructure funds or utilities. So I, you know, I spend a lot of time having to sell the idea of this mega scale solar project in the great white north. So that was that was, you know, that was kind of, that was, that was kind of interesting, but you know, a lot of people don't know, but you know, the data proves it that, you know, Alberta is really well suited for for solar.

So you know, so we were able to work through those concerns, some of the, I guess institutional inertia you know, here in Alberta, you know about this new type of technology. I mean, we're, we understand energy and oil and gas very well. Renewables is still something we're learning you know, so having to get through some of that, but we brought in a great a great partner to, to fund the project and you know, ultimately was built successfully.

We no longer owners of the project, but you know, very, very proud of, of the legacy that project leaves behind.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. And you should be you know, it's not an easy job and, and, and to be the first person to be like, okay, yeah, we can do this, we can actually sit down and we can build, you know, Canada's largest solar project, let's just go for it is incredibly ambitious and congratulations on your success with that.

That is no small feat. And you know, I mean, there's only one chance. To be first and you guys got it regardless of who owns it now.

Dan Balaban: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I, you know, I should point out, yeah, one thing I didn't mention is the reason that, so we invest, you know, in the millions of dollars in years.

To get this project ready, but you know, this is a, this is a project that's almost a billion dollars. So it was a big investment by by our partner to build out the project.

Kelly Kennedy: Are they all private partners or have you guys had public funds to, to help you with this?

Dan Balaban: No, we've you know, all the money we've raised has been you know, private capital from you know, some, some of the, some of the companies that we've we've sold projects to are partnered with our, our public.

publicly traded companies, but private infrastructure funds, pension funds, utilities. Those are the parties we work with.

Kelly Kennedy: I see. Cool. How, okay. So explain to me when you were looking for investors, what was that process like for you? Cause you know, we're obviously on a business development show and there's gonna be lots of people who are looking for investment.

Do you want to maybe explain what that process was like? How did you find these large size investors?

Dan Balaban: You know, so you know, we have two sets of investors, I would say we have investors in our company. So those are the investors that have you know, where we've raised in the millions of dollars. So, you know, it's in the tens of millions of dollars now over, over many years, but you know, to invest in the front end part of our projects and in that case you know, so I was a co founder and and You know, my own seed investor in the company.

But along the way it's funded by friends, family, high net worth individuals. That's how we funded the front end. So what we do is we invest that money that we raised from, from those individuals, those types of people over, over those years to get the projects ready for the big capital to come in.

Like these pension funds, these infrastructure funds, these utilities and what we, what we did is I thought, you know, we did a pretty good job of telling our story, right? So okay, you know, making putting Alberta on the map, if you will, from a renewable energy perspective. Because that was a bit of a challenge for us when we started in the industry and also you know, telling the story about why Albert is a great place for wind, solar and the like.

So I think you know, laying a pretty good foundation for our projects you know, general support and interest in our projects but you know, then we work with, bankers, investment bankers who help us you know, find the right partners for our projects and negotiate the right deals.

And yeah, we've got, you know, a great team of lawyers, advisors to help us, work through that.

Kelly Kennedy: Okay. Okay. So at what stage do these, you know, institutions step in? Do you guys already have shovels in the ground at that point? At what stage do do you kind of approach them? Like you said, you may already or is it is just we already have X amount of funds.

Would you like to join us in this endeavor? Is that kind of how that works? Or do you already have construction ongoing?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, you know, it really depends on the deal. Okay. On the project but generally speaking, what I'd say is you know, we take the project from idea through to the start of construction and at that time, because at the start of construction, that's when you know, the big capital is required to, you know, to actually build out the project.

That's when you go from the, you know, the millions of dollars of investment to the hundreds of millions of dollars. Required to build it out. So that's typically when we'll bring in bring in a partner to, to fund that. And, you know, we'll either potentially sell the project retain an ongoing interest in the project.

You you know, it really depends. But, you know, but, you know, we've, we've held some projects longer through to, through, through to construction. There's a couple wind farms that just came online that you know, we, we still own an interest in. So, you know, really depends on, on the projects.

Kelly Kennedy: Okay. Okay. Yeah. No, it's just definitely a question that I had because I know, like you said, 2 million ain't no small amount. And it would be interesting to know kind of what the process is like. We talked about this briefly before too. You mentioned that, you know, jumping through the legal hoops, the regulatory hoops was also an interesting challenge for you.

Do you want to maybe speak to that a bit?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, well you know, these are large developments. There's you know, a very you know, long regulatory process that. Projects need to go through, you know, fortunately, in Alberta, though, you know, we have energy development that's been going on in our province for decades.

So we actually understand energy development really well compared to a lot of other places and have a very good regulatory framework. It's just very comprehensive you know, so that involves, you know, structured consultation with the public on all the various aspects of the project you know, impacts from a, you know, a noise perspective, a glare perspective you know, visual impacts and then environmental impacts you know, we have to run a, you know, a year of field studies that, you know, look at a whole bunch of you know, potential environmental risks of the project could create or habitats that could be impacted.

You know, so that's a long process and then you know, working with the regulators to, you know, ultimately connect into the grid. You know, that's a multi year process and all that moves along in parallel and you need to make sure that it all fits together into a very, you know, detailed plan to ultimately execute it.

It's complicated, but a lot of fun, a lot of variety.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, definitely, definitely gives you something to look forward to every day. There's got to be some kind of a new challenge to tackle.

Dan Balaban: Every day is every day something comes up and you never know what it's going to be. But you know, something's going to come up.

Kelly Kennedy: So I'm surprised that hooking up to the grid is is one of your major challenges. Is this is this just due to it being hard or is this due to potentially some pushback from power companies?

Dan Balaban: Well, the way the grid is you know typically managed in most places, you have a system operator an organization that's responsible for operating the grid and ensuring that it can deliver reliable.

Power and here in Alberta, you know, we have a very reliable grid and, you know, very strict rules around how it's operated and how you connect new projects into it. Yeah. So if you want to build a, if you want to build a half a billion or a billion dollar power project, and you want to connect it to the grid.

You don't just like fill out a form and have somebody plug you in 60 days later, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta work through a multi year process where they look at all sorts of, you know, you run all sorts of studies to see, you know, what the impact is going to be and what sort of equipment needs to be upgraded at various places to continue to ensure reliability and then you know they also have to consult with the public about it and yeah, it's yeah.

It's all complicated.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I, and I really appreciate you coming on and doing this educational segment because I, mean, I know that I am incredibly curious and I've heard, you know, I mean, I've heard it all to like, Oh, our grid can't sustain all this or we're not prepared for a clean energy transition or, you know, we can't, we can't actually You know, power, if everyone had an electric car, like these are all things that obviously I've heard and everyone else is hearing, but we don't know what any of that means, right?

Like, it's like, unless you're in it and you actually work in the energy sector, in the power transmission sector, it's like, it might as well be magic.

Dan Balaban: Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Powers power is really an amazing thing, right? You have you turn on your light bulb and there's something behind the scenes that needs to make sure that there's enough power being produced in that moment.

To supply that light bulb, right? There's like, literally it's it's, but it's, you know, it's a, it's a complicated system. It's been around for a long time. And those that operate it are very protective of it and want to make sure that it, you know, continues to be reliable. But the whole conversation about what's possible is something else.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes, I agree. I agree. But you know, I mean, we don't hear people necessarily talking about what that means or like, you know, I mean, like, you know, the goal of Canada is 2035, right? We want to be 100 percent clean energy or sorry, I may be wrong on that number. Can you give me the exact statistic of what the 2035 goal is?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, so they the federal government under their Proposed clean electricity regulation wants is wants all the provinces to have a net zero grid by 2035, meaning all the electricity. That is produced in the province and, you know, across Canada will need to come from sources that don't create emissions.

That's the federal goal. And the province, Alberta here is pushing back very strongly against that goal. And that is the contentious contentious issue at the moment in energy in Alberta.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. Well, I heard them talking about it just this morning on the radio. You know, about that potentially being a challenge or about the Alberta government fighting back against that.

Why? Like, why? Why the pushback from from your standpoint? Is it? Is it because it's not realistic or possible? Or is it just because it would cause a lot of challenge in the oil and gas sector?

Dan Balaban: I think, I'd say a net zero grid by 2035. Well, I think now with with us really pushing back against it, I think it is, it is very, very difficult to do.

I'd say if we were, if we were going at it with our full ambition and say, you know, taking it on as a challenge. yOu know, there's two ways you can look at it. Certainly a challenge. It's certainly ambitious. But is it impossible? No. Is it a challenge? Yes, absolutely. And you can look at it in two ways.

It's a challenge that we want to embrace. You know, I think Alberta really had the opportunity to demonstrate to the world what's possible like Alberta's you know, really innovative place you know, relatively prosperous and we understand energy better than just about any place in the world.

And if anybody could figure out, I think it's Alberta. That said, that's not the direction we've chosen to go in. We've chosen to, you know, to fight against that that objective and, and not take, you know, not take it on with with that level of ambition. , but Mm-Hmm. , you know, I'm, I'm sympathetic you know, to some of the concerns that the province expressed for sure.

You know, Alberta has unique challenges associated with getting to net zero. The reason is a lot of other provinces have a, an abundance of hydro resources and, nuclear resources, and what that does is that provides emissions free consistent 24 7 power. You know, it's still expensive, but those are technologies that are well proven.

Alberta. However, it doesn't have any nuclear. We don't have any hydro and the prospects of bringing any on in the near term are pretty low. So so what we rely on today is a bunch of thermal. Yeah. Generation generation that relies on burning fossil fuels used to be coal. Now it's natural gas. And that's how we provide our 24 7 power.

On top of that, we have much more, you know, more and more renewables that are coming onto the grid, which is absolutely fantastic. But just, you know, to to transition away from, you know, this. Generation that you know, burns natural gas. To something that doesn't produce any emissions is definitely a challenge.

So, you know, how do you do that in Alberta? You know, in my view, there are some ways to do that. You know, in Alberta, we can continue building renewables and building more and more renewables, which would mean we would need ultimately. Less of the gas you know, for the gas that we have it's carbon capture and storage.

So we can look at you know, potentially sequestering the carbon associated with that, you know, there's energy storage technologies that are, that are vying. So there's a, you know, a bunch of you know, pathways to get there. But it all has a cost. And you know, that's another reality is you know, just pushing it too quickly result in a cost.

That's unbearable ultimately for the consumers. So that's, you know, we need to find the right balance here. And I think the unfortunately, the issues become you know, very polarizing unnecessarily. So, and. You know, renewables actually in Alberta, we're growing growing very nicely with any of, without any of these really hard mandated targets.

So you know I'd rather we don't fight about it and find you know, find a common path forward, but I'm not in politics, so it's it's not up to me.

Kelly Kennedy: I love that though. I love that that's your stance and I completely agree with you. I think it's stupid. I think it all benefits us, period. I don't care what way you look at it, finding ways to generate more power, no matter how it is done, is going to be better for, for our province, period.

And I think we need to just start working together.

Dan Balaban: Start working together. We need to, we know we need to all recognize that it's, that I think it's also important to recognize that climate change is is an important issue and that needs to be addressed. But you know, there's there's got to be practical considerations on how we get there.

Kelly Kennedy: Agreed, agreed. I think the challenge is this, is that. It's our pocketbooks that do the talking, right? And when you're paying astronomical amounts for energy bills, you know what I mean? People start to think like, you know, yeah, we get it. The climate's important, but, you know, being broke sucks. Right? Like there's two sides to it.

So it's one of those things where when that's the fight, when that is the fight people, people don't want to be broke. And so how do you find the balance is, is clean energy. Is there a point at which this becomes, you know, cheaper for the, for the end consumer?

Dan Balaban: Well, renewable energy is already really cheap.

So, you know, wind and solar are now the cheapest sources of new power generation that we have available to us. The challenge with them though, is that they don't produce energy, you know, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you know, they produce energy, you know, solar during the daytime when, when the, you know, the wind blows, which could be, you know, daytime or nighttime, it's still important energy in the mix, but it's getting it to the point that is you know, producing on a 24 by 7 basis.

Without emissions, that's the, that's the part that makes it expensive, more expensive, more expensive, if you will, but you know, as we continue to invest in those technologies, the costs will come down. So I think we need to keep on pushing for it. I don't think we should just throw up our hands and say, it's too expensive.

Therefore, it's impossible. We shouldn't do it. I think we should keep on innovating and pushing for it, but, you know, doing it in a you know, in a reasonable. In a reasonable manner.

Kelly Kennedy: Oh man, you just opened my eyes. And I think a lot of listeners eyes, it's a supply and demand thing. It's not that it's more expensive.

It's just that there's a, there's less of it. Is is that reasonable to say, like, because it's not generating 24 7.

Dan Balaban: No, so this is this is an interesting phenomenon. So in in the solar industry you know, the 1 of the, the, the reduction in solar panel costs was largely driven by the increase in manufacturing capacity.

So, basically, generally speaking, the, you know, for every doubling of manufacturing capacity you have for, for it, you have like a having in costs, kind of like Moore's law in you know, that used to apply in in computers, you know, where you know, computer efficiency of microchips would would increase and costs would continue to come down and that really kind of revolutionized.

That's why we all carry a computer more powerful than what's sent to humans to the moon in, you know, in the palm of our hands. Right. Yeah, okay. But it's the same sort of thing in, in solar, right? So manufacturing capacity exploded all over the world, like tons of, you know, solar panel manufacturing capacity mostly in Asia that cause costs to, you know, come down really dramatically.

And that's why solar energies. Cheap but the same thing I think is going to happen with batteries, right? As we electrify more and more of our economy and more and more of these battery facilities are built and battery capacity goes up, the cost of batteries is going to come down. And you know, that applies to all sorts of things.

As you build a, you know, big manufacturing complex around something your costs will start coming down, you know, EVs themselves, the costs are coming down. So that's generally the trend. But if you don't invest in it, you'll never get to that point. Yes. Yes. So that's that we need to invest in it.

Kelly Kennedy: Dan.

Okay. I want to talk. I want to talk about about power storage because obviously that's one of the big challenges with power is that we have to use currently at least with with power plants as far as I understand. And I could be wrong, right? Like it says magic, but we have to use the power when it is generated.

Is that a fair statement?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, that's that's absolutely true. Yeah. At, you know, at the moment, there's there's really not any You know, widely adopted solution to store power in large volumes. And that is the the challenge of the the electricity system. You know, some places can get the same type of effect.

So, for example, if you've got a large hydro dam you can you know kind of turn off the valve, so it doesn't produce any that much and, you know, let the reservoir fill up over time, essentially storing energy, you know, potential energy in that reservoir and then you create the, you know, when you want it, but you know, batteries are something that you know, has been talked about to try to deal with you know, some of some of the intermittency of renewables.

You know, battery costs are continuing to come down as you know, as electric vehicles become more and more widely adopted. You have more of that manufacturing capacity, like I was talking about being built up. Those costs come down and some of those batteries can be deployed. Those same batteries that are deployed in EVs.

Can be deployed in you know, large scale stationary storage applications. And, you know, like Tesla, for example, they produce, you know, shipping containers of batteries for this purpose started being, you know, and there's others, they're not the only ones and you know, these batteries are starting to be deployed in various places around the world Australia, California Ontario certainly the potential for that you know, here in Alberta as well, but you know, the way I look at it, it's just another tool in the toolbox.

It's not a solution that's gonna solve everything and just another thing that you can use to allow the grid to handle more renewables and produce that energy for longer periods of time.

Kelly Kennedy: Well, why, like, why haven't we been using batteries the whole time?

Like, to me that seems like to be, to have to generate power regardless of how you're generating it and use it immediately, or, you know peak times or whatever. It seems like the whole solution the whole time was that we needed some way to store this energy. Is it just that we're getting technologically to the stage now where we could actually do it?

Is that what's happening?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, we're getting, you know, we're getting to the point now where battery costs have come down to the point that you know, makes economic sense. But I mean, we have been using batteries for a while in you know Like data centers, for example, you know, when they have a power outage, you know, they have batteries that you know, we'll ensure that there's uninterrupted power continue to be provided to the servers.

You know that, you know, that's all that that's widely adopted. But what we're talking about is you know, batteries that I'm, you know, for a use case that requires a lot more of them. You know, to provide energy for a lot longer period of time, and the economics are, you know, finally starting to make sense.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, when I was doing the research on you guys your Luna, you have a couple stations that are actually battery storage built in, right? Like Luna, Luna has battery storage. That's correct, right?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, so you know, so that project in particular that's a project that we developed.

But it's now owned by by another company. It's owned by a company called Northland Power. We did, we did a deal at the end of last year to you know, to sell a number of projects that were in the development stage, actually. So these are projects that weren't operating, but projects that were still in the development stage to Northland, Luna was one of them.

Yeah, so, you know, well, you know, what we're seeing more and more in In projects going forward is the co location of batteries with the project. So, meaning instead of just having a standard solar project, you have a solar project with you know, battery storage on the same site and that allows.

you know, the power to be produced more flexibly. And yeah, that was you know, just you know, trying to incorporate that flexibility into, into projects going forward. And I think that's, that's what we're going to see more and more of in the future.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I know it to me, it seems like why, why wouldn't we do that the whole time?

But I get it. I feel like, I feel like, like you said, it had to make economic sense at the end of the day. And I imagine that was the challenge that that many batteries or that scale of batteries probably was not cheap at all. And it had to, I imagine the costs had to come down before it was even feasible.

Dan Balaban: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, anything's possible for a cost. Right. But you know, we're, you know, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we're. Developing these projects, we're creating ultimately an investment opportunity for institutional investors, you know, some of the largest in the world. And just because renewable energy project doesn't mean they're going to invest in it.

If it loses money, you know, they, they, these are, you know it's an investment and they you know It needs to deliver an economic return, and unless whatever you're doing enhances the returns of the project, it's a difficult decision.

Kelly Kennedy: Absolutely. You know, I mean, I talk about it on the show all the time.

Whatever you do, it either has to make people money or save people money. There's really no two ways about it. There's got to be some type of balance there. It doesn't make financial sense. So yeah, I totally, I totally understand. Yeah. One of the questions that I had for you. I wanted to talk a little bit about the grid.

You know, you mentioned that being a challenge. You mentioned that kind of just getting onto the grid is obviously not an easy task, especially when you're bringing in the amount of energy that you guys are bringing on. What has to happen for you to do that? Do you like I imagine there's a limit.

There's just, there's like a limit to how much power can be transmitted at any given time. If you guys bring your facility online, does that mean that, like, the power plant has to reduce power at that time? Or how does that work exactly?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, so, you know, in different places, it works, Differently, but in Alberta, we have Canada's only deregulated power market and basically we have a the power pool it's called and all the generators bid into the power pool for how much they're willing to produce power for.

In any given hour and the the needs are, you know, the needs of that moment in time are matched up with the stack of generators that have bid to supply the power. And you know, whatever the ultimate, you know, price ends up being to match the load at that time sets the price for everybody.

And, in the case of renewables renewables always bid in 0. Right. So, because we are, we can't decide to turn on and off at will, it's becoming more and more possible for renewable projects to turn on and off at will, you know, with sort of these storage solutions being implemented, but generally speaking, they're price takers.

So that's probably more detailed than you wanted, but that's how it works.

Kelly Kennedy: No, that's awesome. That's awesome. I appreciate it, Dan. Like I said, like, where else are we going to learn this? So I appreciate it immensely. Talk to me about the future. The future. I know we're, I know we're getting to getting into it a little bit and that's okay.

What do you think? Do you think that renewables are going to replace some of these other generations? Like, you know, I, I forget. It's, it's you said it's natural gas generation right now, like Genesee. Do you, do you foresee renewables completely replacing these, you know, in 30 years, 20, 30 years, or do you think that it's going to just be like supplemental?

Like we're always going to have both.

Dan Balaban: Well, I think, you know, ultimately we need to get to a net zero future. I think that's important you know, for the sustainability of human civilization because of you know, climate change. You know, we talked about it a little bit earlier. Yeah, we we have to consider the costs today of you know, all these decarbonization efforts, but on the other side, we also have to consider the costs of not doing anything.

And, you know, if we're talking 20, 30 years out if we continue to do nothing you know, we will have costs that are probably well in excess of whatever the costs are to to deal with it. Now, early action is is always, is always less expensive. All that said you know, I think what we're going to see over time is an increasing amount of renewables on the grid.

Do I think there's going to be none of the other stuff left? No, I don't think that's going to be the case. What I think we're going to do is we're going to have you know, solutions that are going to allow us to provide a net 0 grid decarbonization solutions. You know, so. Natural gas with you know, carbon capture attached to them, you know, more nuclear, more renewables, more batteries, more hydro more of, you know, maybe it's something we don't even you know, have in our toolkit today, but I think it's going to be a combination of things.

I don't think that's that's the problem with this. I think general, not our discussion, but the general discussion playing out in the public on this is way too polarized. It's, you know, been framed as you know, all of 1 and none of the other, but I think it's going to be all of the above going forward with you know, decarbonization attached to.

Kelly Kennedy: I find it interesting, because the more that I learn about this subject, the more that it starts to feel like this isn't really a fight of oil and gas versus renewables that they're making it out to be. It's not that.

Dan Balaban: Yeah, I mean, it shouldn't be. It certainly shouldn't be. It's playing out that way politically unfortunately.

But yeah, it's been framed as oil and gas versus renewables, but it's an and. It's oil and gas and renewables. You know, Alberta, Alberta is you know, one of the top oil producing, oil and gas producing regions in the world. Why would we ever give that up? Like it would be obs it would be absurd to give that up.

We should absolutely be, be continuing to invest in our oil and gas industry as long as the world continues to use oil and gas. And that's gonna be for a long time. But, but, but at the same time, we can do things much more efficiently and and, you know, get to a lower carbon future and use the prosperity that we have to Invest in the future, and that's really what I would like to see more is you know you know, more of a stronger commitment and sustained commitment that is not exposed to every election and a change of political leadership, like a resilient policy that's recognized by all of us. That is you know, the right way for us to go.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, no. Agreed. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And you know, I mean, I hope that's kind of maybe the takeaway that people get from this is that, you know, there's room for both and they're both needed. Right? Absolutely. Like, that's just the reality of it. And just because the way that the political arena is leaning at any given time that doesn't mean that that's, that's the way it is.

Like the reality is we're going to need both of these solutions. There's, it doesn't have to replace one another. And yeah, I'm really happy that we got to kind of have that conversation about it. One of the questions that I wanted to talk to you about Dan was, how about jobs, right? We're not really talking about what what renewable energy means for jobs, but it's a big deal.

Dan Balaban: Oh, yeah, absolutely. There's, you know, there are tons of jobs you know, that are created in, in renewables. You know, our talked about that solar project, the Travers solar project, a project we developed that was just completed at the end of last year. You know, at the height of construction, it had you know, close to a thousand people on site.

You know, so this is you know, these are projects that create jobs as they're built out. If you look at you know, a lot of the job booms that we've had in Alberta, a lot of it has been driven by the massive construction activity that's been going on to support the oil and gas sector.

You know, a lot of it around the oil sands and you know, all the spinoff benefits associated with that. But we also have the potential for a construction boom in renewables in Alberta. And I wouldn't say just the potential. We have been seeing a construction boom around renewables in Alberta with billions of dollars of invest investment over the last number of years, thousands of jobs that that have been created and I think we just need to keep on encouraging you know, that you know, to continue because I think it's great. It's another another leg of the stool for our economy.

Kelly Kennedy: Absolutely. Like the reality is we need as many jobs as we can get period. And these are good jobs. These are not, you know, just mediocre jobs.

These are these are high paying family sustaining jobs. And I think that it's very critical that we we remember that that it's not just Oh, renewables, you know, I'm out of my job. The reality is there's going to be a ton of jobs in renewables moving forward because this 2035 goal is incredibly ambitious.

Like Dan, we didn't really talk about it, but if we were to get into what that would mean, what, what would a revamp on the power grid even look like?

Dan Balaban: Well, in order to get to that you know, that particular 2035 goal we need to have started yesterday and in a very serious way, but you know, really, really, you know, if, if we're going to, if.

If that truly is the goal, I think you know, there's a big political debate about it right now. The province is saying they want to get there by 2050. The feds are saying they want us to get there by 2035. You know, now the province has invoked the sovereignty act you know, to you know, to push back against it.

So all this is still playing out. But assume let's just, let's say. For for hypothetical hypothetical reasons, we're saying it's 2035. You know, that's going to require a massive build out of solar, massive build out of wind, a lot more battery storage projects all over the province, a lot more carbon capture and storage in Alberta you know, a lot more hydrogen potentially in Alberta.

More hydrogen development and you know, potentially even nuclear.

Kelly Kennedy: It's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of change, regardless of what way you look at it, and it will create a lot of jobs, and I think it will be good, not just for the country, but for, for Alberta, and I, you know, I mean, I'm incredibly for Alberta, I know you are as well.

 I find it kind of funny that all of your projects are in Alberta, yet it's so polarized, like, You know, I mean, you would think being so environmentally forward that B. C. would be on board or that, you know, some of the other provinces would have jumped on board. But no, it's right here in Alberta. It's a little bit funny, isn't it?

Dan Balaban: Yeah, it is. I really love punishment. No, I'm just kidding. I'm actually just kidding. Alberta, Alberta's you know, been a great place to do business. So. You know, Alberta's got phenomenal fossil fuel resources, but we also have amazing renewable energy resources. We have some of the best onshore wind resources in the world or certainly in North America.

We have some of the best solar resources in North America. So. You know, really great to produce electricity from from that. And you know, we're the only deregulated power generation market. In Canada, and I think that's really been the key is, you know, so if you are developing a project. And you can jump through all the regulatory hoops and ultimately find a, you know, buyer for the power or you're comfortable selling it into the market and can justify the economics.

There's nothing stopping you from connecting to the grid. Nothing stopping you from. From going ahead, whereas every other place, you cannot move ahead unless the provincial utility is wanting you to move ahead. So interest and, you know, and, and, you know, they may decide that they need power at that point in time, in which case they procure power, but if they're not procuring power, you're not connecting the grid and these other places.

So that's the real difference in Alberta and allows for a lot of commercial innovation, which is something that we've fortunately been able to take advantage of. Thanks. And yeah, it's, it's, it's been the industry has been growing in Alberta you know, quite a bit and I hope it you know, hope it will continue.

Kelly Kennedy: Absolutely. And you know what I mean? It's, it's just funny that we get hated on because we're, you know, we're a dirty oil Alberta, yet we're kind of leading, leading the, leading the charge with the green energy front too. So, you know, maybe it's time for these other provinces to step up a little bit. What do you think?

Dan Balaban: I do think it's time for the other provinces to step up. We certainly don't do ourselves any favors by declaring a temporary moratorium. On a new renewable development, like we're currently dealing with in Alberta. I'm, you know, I'm worried that has the potential to stunt our growth, but I think, yeah, I certainly think other provinces need to, need to step up and Alberta needs to work through this moratorium nonsense and get back to the growth we're seeing in the industry.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Dan, that brings us to the end of our show today. If you know, I just wanted to ask you one question. We're talking to a lot of entrepreneurs, we're talking to a lot of business owners, founders, and they always love great advice from people such as yourself. And, you know, if you could give them one piece of advice what might that be?

Dan Balaban: Make sure to find time for yourself. You know, being an entrepreneur is you know, very challenging experience as all entrepreneurs know. And it has the potential to, to almost become an obsessive focus to the exclusion of other things in your life. And I think if you want to make, make your entrepreneurial journey sustainable make sure you take care of yourself, take care of your, your body, your mind and and your family.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. Amazing. Thank you, Dan. I appreciate that. This is really cool too, Dan. This is our very first guest interview of 2024. So I just want to wish, you know, all of our listeners an absolutely amazing 2024. I wish you health, I wish you prosperity, and I hope you have an absolutely amazing, amazing year.

This has been episode 96 of the Business Development Podcast. We have been graced by Executive Chair and CEO of Greengate Power, Dan Balaban. Until next time, we'll catch you on. The flip side.

Outro: This has been the business development podcast with Kelly Kennedy. Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization. Is in customer relationship generation and business development. The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your Business Development Specialists. For more, we invite you to the website @ www.capitalbd.ca. See you next time on the Business Development Podcast.

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