Follow Your Gut with Ashley McKarney

Follow Your Gut with Ashley McKarney

Kelly Kennedy: ​Welcome to episode 82 of the business development podcast. And on today's expert guest interview, we have president of Involvi consulting, Ashley McKarney. We are chatting about our most valuable resources, our people, stick with us. You're going to love this one.

Intro: The Great Mark Cuban once said, business happens over years and years value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship, not by how much you squeezed out in any one deal. And we couldn't agree more. This is the business development podcast based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and broadcasting to the world.

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by Capital Business Development. CapitalBD.ca. Let's do it. Welcome to the Business Development Podcast. And now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly Kennedy: Hello, welcome to episode 82 of the business development podcast. My gosh, I cannot believe we are at 82. We're actually recording these episodes now almost a full month ahead. So in real world, we're actually at episode 72. I love to be ahead, especially with our interviews. Plus, it is a challenge to try to kind of keep up and make sure that we're keeping up with not just my time, but our guests.

They have very valuable time schedules as well. So we do like to get them when they're available. But yeah, you are listening to 82 today, but we are actually recording this a full month early. This is going to be coming out likely right around November 19th. And if that is the case Yeah, my life is about to get a real shake up because I have a kid due around November 25th.

This may be the last show right before that, which is exciting, but who knows what the future will bring. Either way, we're very, very excited in the Kennedy household. Today though, Today we have an absolutely amazing, amazing guest for you, Ashley McKarney, president of Involvi HR right here in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

Ashley is passionate about people and has been for as long as she could remember. She is a seasoned human resources professional with over 15 years of experience across diverse industries. Her journey in HR has been marked by building comprehensive HR functions and collaborating with senior executives.

To enhance engagement and drive organizational growth. In 2019, Ashley founded Involvi Consulting, with a mission to partner with proactive leaders and business owners. Helping them elevate their HR practices. Providing continuous expert solutions. and fostering an environment that improves working conditions and enriches organizational culture.

Ashley holds the prestigious designations of CPHR and SHRM SCP, and she earned her Bachelor of Commerce degree from the University of Alberta. When she is not immersed in her HR passion, Ashley, along with her husband and their energetic four year old son, find joy in exploring new destinations, immersing themselves in diverse cultures, and savoring culinary adventures at the latest restaurants.

Ashley, I've been wanting to have you for a while. It's a pleasure.

Ashley McKarney: Thank you so much for having me. That was a great welcome, Kelly.

Kelly Kennedy: No, no, it was, it was a fitting, a fitting.

Ashley McKarney: Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

Kelly Kennedy: Oh no. I, you know, I say it a lot on this show, but I am always, I'm endlessly impressed with the quality of guests we got on this show and you are no exception.

Well, thank

Ashley McKarney: you. Yes, you've had quite the stream of guests that I've been able to listen to and learn from, so I'm honoured to be a part of it.

Kelly Kennedy: We have been blessed. There's no two words about it. Blessed. You know, at this point, it's nine months into our journey, and it just, it never ceases to blow my mind the quality of guests that we've had, we've had on the show, and the people that have trusted me to host these interviews most of them unknowingly or unknowing of who I am, and Yeah, you know, that's changing obviously, but in the beginning, you know, I I have the utmost appreciation for the guests, especially, you know, my first 35, 40, they're like, who is this guy?

What is he doing? And why does he want to talk to me? And is he going to represent as well? So thanks for trusting me.

Ashley McKarney: Of course. No, I mean, to be episode 82, you know, I'm, I'm pretty privileged, but, you know, it's been great so far. And I'm glad that you've taken this stride, especially in the local market to, to honour local entrepreneurs, but I also, you know, love how you're expanding that base as well.

Kelly Kennedy: You know what? Edmonton is amazing. You know, it's my hometown. I've born and raised here. You know, I grew up actually in Spruce Grove, so just outside, but not that far. But you know, like I love our entrepreneurial community. You know even mine and your introduction was through, I'm in Soundgy with the Edmonton Chamber and the Edmonton Chamber has been.

Amazing. Like I have, you know, I can't even with how great the, the Edmonton chamber has been and you know, I'm in and Ken are right there at the forefront of that. But this introduction definitely came through them and I appreciate it greatly. And we've had quite a few guests on the show saying, Hey, Kelly, have you met these guys?

You really should.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah. Well, you'll probably get a few of those for me after this show too.

Kelly Kennedy: I mean, well, that's how, that's how it works, right? That's how it all grows. And we appreciate it immensely. So. You know, H. R. H. R. It's really, you know, your superhero power at this point, and you guys are you're leading HR in the city, and you're shaking things up as you know, from my show. I want the whole journey. I don't just want today. I want to know how did you end up here? And I always love going back through people's resumes and seeing they didn't start there. There's a whole journey that got them there. So take us back to the beginning.

Ashley McKarney: Oh boy. And, and many, as many of your guests have asked, like, how far back do you want to go? I was a kid in, I'm just kidding. You know, I think from a young age, I was involved in a really business focused household with my dad in commercial real estate. We lived in Vancouver for a little while and, you know, moved back to Edmonton, which is where I was born.

Really just watched my dad grow up through various organizations. And my mom was a working mom as well. And, you know, I started working in an internship at second cup coffee locally, you know, in grade nine, I think. Right. And got a flavor for working. And, and I recap. Back probably in high school when I had five jobs one summer, right?

And I was just, why have a hobby when you can make some money? And so I just found myself in a variety of industries and it kept me going with different, interesting areas. And when I graduated high school and thought, okay, I'm going to take some time off and travel, which I did. And then it was, what do I want to do?

And it was really kind of lost. And of course my dad being a U of A grad said, you should probably just go to business school. It's a good variety. You'll suss things out and figure out what you want to do. And so I did and accounting and finance were not for me. Everybody that knows me knows that wasn't going to be my stream.

But I always seem to do really well in the people aspect and in the qualitative aspect of business and, and that strategy piece, as I've learned more. So yeah, I started working at the U of A in the school of retailing right out of university. And then from there, just really met some amazing humans and was blessed with a lot of opportunities.

And if you know, you look at my resume or my LinkedIn, a lot of people might go, Ooh, she job jumped. Right. And maybe so, but it was opportunities in different industries and different challenges that I was excited to take on. And the second first role I had was a retail manager and, and knew that that really wasn't for me, but I was brand new and, and I was interviewed by IKEA in an HR role.

And after a two and a half hour interview, I was like, I'm, I'm taking this job. I want this job and this is where I want to be. And, and that was really that precipice for, okay, now you're in this world that we call HR.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Well, there's even a little bit of a time before that where you you, you were in sales and I wanted to talk about that because that's my world.

So, you know, you got out of school and your first kind of foray before HR was into sales.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah, it was. I dabbled in a lot of different things. You know, it was, it, I'm a networked relationship kind of human, but I always said, I don't want to be in sales where I'm walking into an office and trying to sell somebody a photocopier when they have a perfectly good one and sorry for all the photocopy salespeople that are out there.

But you know, that was not the sales relationship that I wanted. And that was all I saw as sales. Right. And, and, and, you know, in HR, you could say we sell. Jobs for the different brands that we work for. And so I was working in sales, you know, prior to being in HR, selling jewelry and cars and a bunch of other things.

But it was always mixed with customer service and it was always mixed with that human aspect. So, you know, sales was always in my blood. I think I just needed to figure out what. I wanted to sell and it turns out it was me and my brand and you know, my team and, and the good work that we do now. So it's been a huge evolution with that as that foundation.

Kelly Kennedy: I love, I love that you touched on that you are doing sales in HR because I remember many, many years ago sitting down with our head of HR at the company that I worked with at the time and said, look, my job and your job. They're not that different. You're in business development, but your business development is with the people we need at this organization.

You need to create a value proposition for the company. You need to show them why they want to be here, and you ultimately need to close them on this job. It's no different than what we're doing in business development. It may be a little bit different in the target clientele, but the reality is the job is exactly the same, and you're the first person.

Who's actually said that and I love it. I love it.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah. And I think, you know, I, I'm glad that I've said that because I've often reflected that that's it. But I think that's also one of the biggest challenges for HR professionals, right? Regardless of the level that you're in or the organization that you're in, you are selling culture, which We've defined it in Involvi, but it's very hard for organizations to make that a tangible piece that they can communicate.

But you're also selling total compensation and a career and a job and a product and a brand, right? And so in sales with air quotes as HR, right? We're selling all of that, but more so we need to make sure that what we're selling is actually what those individuals are going to experience when they start in the job.

And we're also selling the leadership style and the method of work and the amount of autonomy, right? And so oftentimes we're selling what we've experienced and what we know. And there could be a gap if there's a challenging leader or there's a micromanaging leader, or it's not what we're selling in the interview.

Cause that's turnover. And so oftentimes we focus on yes, recruitment, but also developing those leaders to be better people leaders. So the, what we're selling actually matches the candidate's experience.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and I think that's, it's a hell, it's a hell of a job, especially, you know, I remember we had Justin Deonarine on the show and we were talking about culture and the importance of culture, but not only that, like how challenging it is to change a culture once it's established.

It's not an easy pitch.

Ashley McKarney: No, it's not. And it's incremental, right? And if you try and change it all at once, yeah, you might have some small wins, but the employee base are smarter these days. They care more about the impact. They care more about the brand. They care more about doing what we say and saying what we're going to do.

And there's so many jobs available and there's so many different brands to work for. Now that we're on a global market with remote work, right? It's very quick for a candidate to say, Ooh. Nope, that's not what I was sold in the interview. Peace out. I'm gone. Cause you know, what else is hiding under the carpet that I might not know.

And that stability and that relationship with their team is these days of the utmost importance, almost more so than total comp, even though, you know, that's always there. It's more about the impact and the feeling and those value connections with the brand and the role itself.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes. And the day to day is more important than it's ever been to write like, you know what I mean?

Like, like you said, it's not as like, obviously, people want to make what they want to make or whatever. But it's not enough. You know, I mean, people will quit jobs that they're just unhappy with, or they don't feel connected with no matter what they pay.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah, I've had so many people lately quit a job with nothing to go to and in my head, I'm like, I don't know how you do that.

That doesn't give me stability, but you are your own person, right? And they say no, because I wasn't doing a service to me or my family by being in a job that I really didn't want to go to. And I also wasn't doing the company a service because they weren't getting everything they need to get out of me and my salary and my impact.

So, you know, I think people are putting their lives first for the first time in a long time and that's a shift for leaders and that organizational cycle of, you know, employees and growth and transition and change management and we're all a lot of organizations are almost lagging right now.

Kelly Kennedy: Well, I think because the shift is happening on the back end, but the expectation for the business to still deliver on its products and services has not changed.

No, but, yeah. And so now you have to get creative about how you're going to deliver what used to just make sense. And you're having to get more creative on the back end with your with your staff to make sure that you're able to continue with the same level of expectation that has always been there, but under a new paradigm shift.

Ashley McKarney: You know, I agree with you.

And I think, you know, this could be a whole different podcast topic. But, you know, if I can digress for a second. You know, I think it's always important and I'm not naive to the fact that financials run the world and we need to be in the profit and we measure our profit through KPIs and products and service and customer reach and all of this.

Right? I'm not, you know, naive to that fact. But if we make a switch at the leadership level to say, look, as long as every deal. sale engagement that we do. We know we're in the block and we know we've built some profit in what if we switch from being driven by KPIs growth and year over year success to, Hey, how are employees impacting that?

Because we wouldn't have any of that without them. And I think at the core of it, we let's, let's say that we're best friends out of work and you really step in it and you hurt my feelings, right? Or you really step in it and we disagree. Sometimes in friendships. That causes a break and we're no longer friends, but oftentimes it's, yeah, we might need a little bit of a cooling off period or people make mistakes.

Kelly, we're still good, right? Oftentimes we see a switch in organizations where it's no, you made a mistake. You're dead to me. I'm going to terminate you or you're dead to me. I'm going to force you out or change your role or all of these things that can impact people and we forget that these are humans.

And we're not in an organizational place right now where we can leave our work at the door to go home and leave our home at the door to go into work. And so with those all blending, you know, I think a focus more on people leadership to develop them and grow them to then get the results that we want is the mindset set shift of a lot of successful business owners right now.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, well, you know, you kind of you hit it. You hit it when you're talking about people that the division between work and home has never been more blurred, and I am a perfect example of this. And so is my fiance. We both work from home most of the time like nine. And you know, we complete our tasks, but we regularly are working into the evening because something comes up and we can deal with it today.

So we do. And yeah it definitely does start to blur the lines. And yeah, for me, it's different because I own the company and for you, same thing. So it's like, it's all good for us. But when it's our employees, on the other hand, at what point is it unreasonable to ask them to help?

Ashley McKarney: Well, and I think that has to be part of that culture and that has to be defined in the interview process.

Right. And I think that's the, there's a lot of stereotypes with HR. And I think we've touched on a lot of recruitment, which. Involvi is not a headhunter, you know, we do our own form of recruitment, but HR is so much more. It's people management, it's culture, it's total compensation, it's development, it's performance reviews, and it doesn't have to be done the traditional way because that's the way they've always been done.

If a performance review form is your breaking point in the process, but you want good conversation, then develop a new process, change it up, look at it from a new angle, right? But we have to be transparent with our employees of what we expect of them when they can turn off. I remember if I can tell a story in one of my previous in house roles the CEO was very busy and it was a huge organization that was churning a lot and had a lot of things on the go.

And their process and habits were to call their direct reports on the way into the office on speakerphone in the car and say, Hey, Ashley, how's it going? Just an update for today. Here's the things I need you to focus on. Here's what I need you to do. Blah, blah, blah. Have a great day. I'm around if you need me.

So every time I got into the office, I'd start my day with that phone call. Or if that individual worked at two o'clock in the morning, cause that's when it worked, we would come into work with emails at two o'clock in the morning, which. To some people is like, great, I'm going to get going. This gives me my scope.

I'm ready to go. But to other people that is overwhelming and that is pressure. And that is, Oh, should I have been working at 2 AM? Oh, should I have come in at six? And it almost derails the professional receiving it because they will have a process and schedule for their day too. Right. And so those work hours and when you work and when you're expected to work, I think that communication needs to be upfront and honest.

And I think everybody needs to be held accountable to that. So that there's no perception because we all know perception is reality. Right. And so there's ways to define it and there's ways to manage it. It's just being proactive about who are you as a company, where is your culture and where are your expectations?

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, and I think more than ever, it has to be in working in synchronicity with your employees. Right? Yeah, totally. We don't live in a time anymore where you can just say, look, it's eight o'clock. You're supposed to be in the office doing jobs right now. It just doesn't work anymore, right?

Ashley McKarney: And we've seen that, like there were some CEOs and owners prior to the pandemic that it was, if you are not in your office Monday to Friday, eight to five, I don't believe you're working because I physically can't see you.

And then the pandemic forced all of us to figure it out remotely. And now we're seeing that shift back to the office. And some organizations we've seen a lot on the media that are saying you are back to the office 100 percent regardless. And the employees are almost a little smarter now going. Hmm. I'm going to scratch my head and I'm going to ask questions I wouldn't ask.

If we were successful for the last two years remotely, what's the reason for coming back? Why are you interrupting my life? Why are you interrupting my flow? And that's causing some churn and that's causing some bold employees to ask some questions.

Kelly Kennedy: Well, I think one of the questions you really have to ask yourself is, okay, let's say that you enact that policy and your employees into work at eight o'clock.

Are they, they may be in, but are they being productive? That's a completely different thing, right? The reality is, it's like what you need from your employees is productivity. And you need to figure out how you're going to get that best. And if you just have an employee in who's like, Crap, I don't want to be at the office, but here I am.

So I'm just gonna sit and scroll the internet for the next three hours. That's not helping you either. So where's the middle ground?

Ashley McKarney: Well, it's interesting because we've, we've had this chat with your previous guest, Justin DeOnorine about, you know, productivity hours and where people will spend time and what they are going to naturally do.

And, you know, I've had conversations with leaders going, if you look at the nonproductive time in the office with, hey, I'm going to go say hi to everybody in the morning, and then I'm going to have a smoke break or a coffee break. And then I'm going to walk around and hang out a little bit at the photocopier or the kitchen, you know, and then I'm going to take an extended lunch.

We don't a lot of leaders don't see that as unproductive time because they're still physically there But if I'm running downstairs to put a load of laundry in between meetings, that's all of a sudden unproductive, right? But it's actually giving me as an employee more work life balance And I would probably work harder in the productive hours because I have that freedom But according to Justin and a lot of you know, psychological traits in humans Some people need an office environment to be productive, and some people need a quiet at home space.

And some people are both. And so coming back to that people leadership aspect of HR, or I call it people operations, and we can chat about that later, you know, it's, it's all about getting that balance and finding out who your employees are to then figure out the best way to, you know, get productivity out of them and have a good working relationship.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, I remember talking with Justin about that and what we were talking about was in the beginning of the pandemic because I had worked better part of a decade in offices and so for me when I was in an office, you know, dressed up for work, doing what I need to be doing, I could flip a switch in my head and in the beginning of the pandemic, I was one of the people that really, really struggled with working from home and it was really just due to that ingrained ingrained process in my brain that when I get to work, that's my work time.

When I get home, that's my home time. And so it took me a while. I actually had to lock myself in my room to get the work done for probably a solid month, two months before I really, really was like, okay, I can work from home. And now I work from home like a rockstar, but it took me a while to get there. It took a long time and it's not easy for everybody.

Ashley McKarney: No, no, it's not. And they need that self discipline. And I think, you know, some leaders are going to the extreme if they're uncomfortable with that going, you know, and we've had all the questions. Can I videotape my team at home? Can I monitor what they're clicking on on the Internet? Can I, you know, have a daily report of all the websites they went to to make sure they're being productive, right?

And then we see these TikToks that are laughable of putting your mouse on a fan so that you stay available on teams and putting a green screen on, but you're sleeping in a meeting like we've seen it all right. And I think there will always be ways that those odd employees evade you and aren't the right fit for your organization, but let's not manage by policy and let's not manage to, you know, a point where we're managing those few humans, let's focus on the ones that are doing good, that are reliable, that are accountable, that are engaged, that want to see progress and growth, and maybe let's have tough accountability conversations with those odd few.

That maybe aren't measuring up. And I think, you know, we're seeing a lot of that today is those difficult conversations are the biggest challenge for leaders because they just don't want to do it. And none of us do, if we, if we love having difficult conversations and termination conversations, I question your heart.

And if you have one, right. But at the end of the day, none of us like it, but it's a gain skill that does. Make the world go round. People want to hear feedback.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I want to get into this as we get further on. And I especially want to get into how you how you manage that with involving in your stuff because I feel like you've seen it everywhere.

So you must have the best model.

Ashley McKarney: I do, but my team is going to laugh when they hear this, that I've definitely fallen on my face you know, a little bit in the last couple of years. And it's easy to coach others. And I call it small C coaching because I'm not a certified coach. But, you know, a lot of what we do is small C coaching leaders and, and honing in their skills and perfecting their communication or tweaking it to be better received.

And it's easy to do onto others and coach and help and mentor others. But then when you look in the mirror and now it's your employees and your team and your. Passion is mine has now become the Invalidity brand that the team has adopted and owned. It's a different thing when you're looking at your own team.

And so we always want to have that empathy with the clients that we're working with. And I'm the first to say, Hey, I messed up or I shouldn't have done that. Because it's all a learning journey, right? And, and nobody's perfect. And certainly I still have lots to learn.

Kelly Kennedy: Oh, me too. Me too. I talk about it all the time on the show to you.

The hardest company to market is my own. Cause I have a personal connection to it. So it's easier if like my employees market my company because they don't have that same level of connection. And I talked to a lot of business owners about that. Have someone else do it because I get it. You're personally attached to it.

And that's a tough place to come from when you're doing your own marketing. And I imagine in your case, doing your HR for your own company falls under the same kind of thing.

Ashley McKarney: It, you know, it does to a point, but I have honestly been blessed with one of the best teams that I've ever seen in terms of cohesion, in terms of collaboration, in terms of entrepreneurship and innovation and passion for the work.

And I mean, I, a lot of people are like, Oh yeah, you're biased by saying that, but you know, we've cultivated an amazing culture and an amazing. Reason to come to work every day. And the team has helped me build that. I truly believe in that collaborative approach where we developed our company, mission, vision, and values as a team, we do the entire team strategic planning for next year in November, and everybody comes together because if I can help them write their career paths, and then I just go out and sell it or engage clients in what my team wants to do.

Then it's a pretty, you know, confident piece where I'm like, okay, well, if we're giving them their career, they're going to stay with us and they're going to be engaged and feel like an owner rather than us pushing down that direction and saying, okay, just execute.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes, I agree 100%. I think where there starts to that starts to fall a little bit.

Is once you get to a larger scale organization where you don't have like right now, you have that direct connection with your employees, I do, it's a it's a completely different thing where you start to see it falter, I think, is when you get to these large, large organizations where the head management is never met the smallest guy on the totem pole, never will, and then and then.

It becomes a much harder beast to manage, but I totally agree. If you are a smaller scale company, you have to try to keep it that way as long as possible, because it really does create that family atmosphere for better, for worse, whatever your feelings are on that. In my experience, that has been a positive thing for the business.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah, and I mean, that family atmosphere, you know, is something that we're actually trying to move clients away from and come to more of this community feeling, because I feel like with all of the efforts on DE& I and, you know, inclusivity and all of these things for representativeness across organizations in a, in a diverse way you know, it, It lends itself well to that, but I think it also opens up to a lot more risk and a lot more unknowns that none of us have ever dealt with before.

Right? And so I, you know, I think getting the employees involved and making them feel like they're making an impact and showing them that impact is the way to go. And, you know, I, for larger organizations, as an example, I met the CEO who the culture in this tech organization was just off the charts and I was kind of a kid in a candy store following them around and asking questions and seeing what they do to breed the culture.

And he said, I, as the CEO have zero authority in my company. He said, my CFO and my COO make all the decisions and I have lunch with every employee on an annual basis because as the company gets bigger, you can't do multiple lunches. But he did that so that he opens up that communication line between him and a frontline staff that it's not, I'm going for lunch with the CEO.

Am I going to get fired? Is it discipline? Can I ask for a raise? Is he going to shoot me down? Because they know he has no power. And if they ask for a raise, he's like, go talk to the guys that make the decisions. I'm just here to understand the company, understand your role, and understand you as a human, because you're talking to my clients.

You're engaging with our customers that pay the bill to pay the wages. And I loved that setup because it truly created that full circle of how do we deal and interact with the humans on our team. When it's not about profit or wages or money, right?

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. I think one of the challenges is that people are reluctant to do that because we live in such a, I don't want to say an introverted world because I'm a bit of an introvert and I love being an introvert, but I, you know what I mean?

I, I'm a learned extrovert is what I like to say.

Ashley McKarney: I was going to say you're in business development. So let's, let's, let's clarify introvert.

Kelly Kennedy: I never started this way. I really struggled in the beginning of my business development career. It was a learned skill for me. It is something that I've been naturally good at but it wasn't ever something that I was driven to do, which is an interesting kind of flip.

I, I woke up like, it feels really weird, but I was probably in my BD career for about two years before I woke up and was like, you know what? Like. This is what I want to do like I actually love what I'm doing, but it's weird because it took me a while to like recognize that this was what I actually want to do because I feel like as a as a young man, I spent most of my life running away from sales.

I didn't want to do it. I went to business school to get out of it and still ended up right back in it. And then I was like, All right, like I feel like maybe an acceptance happened and it became my path and away we went. But Yeah, it is an interesting one. I, you know, I very much enjoyed my alone time or, you know, my time with my closest friends or just building things or things along those lines to learn to be outgoing and extroverted was very much a an effort.

But it is a learnable skill and you can do it whether you're introverted or extra or extroverted.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah, I think you can. And I think that's where some of those stereotypes come in when you are recruiting or companies are looking for the right candidate to fill a role, right? It's not just about past experience.

It's about transferable skills and who that human is. And I think at the end of the day, what are you selling? Right? If I go back to my photocopier example, no, I do not want to go sell photocopiers and I probably would be the worst sales person alive. But when you look at the track record of Involvi and our growth and the network that I've been able to lean on and procure through business development and just building relationships and meeting people, you know, When you're selling something that you're passionate about or that you created yourself or you're fulfilling that, you know, need in the community that you know is there, it's a lot easier to just have conversations in an authentic way.

And I think that's the difference is authentic sales versus I need to hit my KPI and I need to push to make my sales quota that feels not authentic. And we all. Most of us turn those LinkedIn messages away or not respond to those random emails because it's like you don't even know who I am, right?

So yeah, I think authenticity is a huge part of how I've built my BD career and how I've networked. And I think that's one of the keys to success.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, and you hit on the other key, which is belief in your product or service, right? I agree 100%. One of the first things I say is like, if you can't get behind the product or service, you're gonna be marketing.

You need to just go do something else. Like you can market anything in the world. If you're in business development or you're in sales. Why would you market something you don't like or you can't get behind?

Ashley McKarney: Well and that too, but then you look at the target market of that brand or of that product And if you don't fit in that target market either, then you also won't be successful I remember at ikea, you know We had people our uniform was jeans and an ikea shirt as you still know it is today and you know If individuals came in in a suit we'd scratch our head going is that a fit and of course we'd never discriminate we hired people all the time, but You know, when, when I talked to salespeople that went up to Fort Mac and in for oil or whatever, they don't show up in a suit because that's pretentious, right?

And so you have to, you know, match the target audience that you're going into. And if you're authentically part of it, you're going to have more success.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, you actually touched on a show topic, an upcoming one, which was the dress for success topic and that a suit is not the best choice for every option.

Ashley McKarney: No, it's not. And I think the suit is, is waning more and more, right? You walk downtown and downtown's not very populated now, but you go to an event and it's a sweater. It's, you know, a sport coat. It's a jacket that is leather or, you know, something else. It's not a suit and tie. And I'd say that that is definitely changing.

But yeah, I can. Yeah, we can talk about that. But there's foreshadowing for an upcoming event.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, here we go. There we go. Yeah. No, absolutely. You know, one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about was you've been in HR a long time. You know, when we're talking back to Ikea now, that's what? 2011.

That's a little bit, a little bit ago.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah, a little bit. Let's not age ourselves, but sure.

Kelly Kennedy: What what was different back then? You know, obviously it's, you know, we're going on what? 14, 13, 14 years since that time. You know, what was it like then versus what it's like now?

Ashley McKarney: The world of HR? Yes. You know, I, I think it's changed a lot and it's continuing to change and, and part of my mission as a professional and as an owner and, and as my team supports clients is to change that perception.

So, you know, starting the journey even before IKEA, because in my management roles, of course you do HR, right? And you lead the HR portions. But I think, you know, traditionally HR is very administrative and stereotypically we're the higher fire police. We are the policy police. We're the no fun. We go out at events and it's like, are you wearing your HR hat tonight?

And it's like, God, I hate that. Cause I'm still a human. Right. And there's a lot of stigma with I'm being called to the HR office. And, and, you know, I think traditionally that is what HR is, but. My goal is to transform that HR through the work that we do and the work that I've done as a professional and really focus on building better people leaders.

Yes, you need the compliance and yes, you need everything. And and this isn't a proven stat. This is an Ashley stat. But I'd say from the work that I've done in the organizations that we've supported 99 percent of employers, including myself. Work in the legislative gray area because we know the risk if what I call the piper comes calling and you get a regulatory body coming at you.

But the other side of it is if you build a team of engaged humans that are passionate and you've got transparency and good communication, you're all working towards the same goal. And so, as a leader, as a business owner, your job is to understand your risk and then operate your business how we want to.

And so, that's how we want to transform HR, but at the end of the day, HR is culture. HR is those intangibles. HR is compliance and our designation requires us to maintain compliance and risk. But, you know, I think it's made that shift from very transactional to very strategic. And... You know, one of the stories that I recount was one of our clients had this culture bear employee.

We've all met them. They're the ones that are at the career fairs. They're posting on LinkedIn that are sharing their careers that are mentoring new employees, right? It's that culture bear flag bear individual. Yeah. And. I walked by, and she'd been with the organization for seven years, and I walked by her desk, and she had no personal effects on her desk.

And I scratched my head a little bit, going, this is a little bit odd, and I asked her. And she says, well, my desk location has been moved seven times in seven years. And I don't, I'm stable in my job, but I don't feel stable, and I just don't want to move things around, because I know I'm going to get moved again.

Oh no. And it kind of broke my heart because they're lucky to have her as this culture bearer and as this flag bearer to recruit and groom new employees, but she doesn't even feel like a true part of the team to welcome her family into her desk. Right. And so, you know, when we look at what is HR, you know, it's a lot of that transactional mindset or you're a recruiter, which is what we get a lot.

But really it's everything dealing with people, including an operational change of desks, which isn't malicious. It's literally we're growing. So we need to move people around. And leaders just don't know what they don't know about managing and supporting the humans on their team. Yes,

Kelly Kennedy: yes. And, you know, I'll be the first to say it.

We don't, right? Like we're learning. It's, you know, nobody, most business owners didn't become business owners because they were experts with people.

Ashley McKarney: No, no, I say, you know, a widget maker loves making widgets and they get into business in making widgets and then all of a sudden they're an accountant, they're HR, they're social media, they're marketers, they're business development, they're all these things and they're no longer making widgets.

And business development, finance, and probably HR are the three time sucks that they wish they could get off their plate. So partner with experts, put your time as an owner where it is most deserved and lean on the experts to partner with to run those aspects.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, you mentioned something earlier. And I remember just thinking, Oh, that must be tough.

You start with leadership. Yeah. What is that like you're into a new organization? You're saying, Hey, you know, I know you've been doing this a while, but I think I have a better way. Do you find that they're receptive? Or has that been a challenge for you?

Ashley McKarney: Well, I think there's a whole gamut, right? And I went into starting Involvi and said, I can change the world.

I can work with any leader and I can move the needle and I can make them better people leaders. And that's a really lofty goal. But the fact of the matter is Some people just won't change. Some people have beliefs. Some people have, you know, ingrained values and actions as part of how they operate, and they're not interested in moving that needle or hearing another perspective.

And so we did, you know put a lot of concerted effort into supporting those clients and those organizations only to then be wedged into this middle ground of the leaders say this, the staff are saying this and we cannot impact change. And that's a really hard place for HR to be right? Because the perception is that we work for the owners.

And we engage with those leaders, but then the perception is, but we're here for the staff and we need to support them. So we play that middle ground. Some HR professionals really well. Some not so much. But at the end of the day, if we cannot impact those leaders. Then we won't be successful because leadership, the tone, the strategy, the expectations, the accountability all come from the top down.

And so sometimes we're engaged by middle management, whether you're in house HR or a consultant and you make a lot of progress and you make change and then you realize, Oh wait, I still have to go up to that top end to make change, and now you're dealing with the two levels of management, often with very different perspectives, and sometimes that's where we fall short, and sometimes that's where we win, and so we try at Involvi to really work with, as you said in the opening, these passionate, engaged leaders that want the support, that want to know their risk and that are willing to build a A trusting, authentic relationship with us and trust that we have their back because we do as an organization looking after their people.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. No, agreed. And we need that support. We really do.

Ashley McKarney: We're here for you, Kelly. We're here for you.

Kelly Kennedy: It really is. I, you know, I've seen this everywhere I've been and it is, I've seen it both sides, kind of like you said, where it's like HR is just there for the hiring, firing, like that's really the role they've been put in.

For better for worse, and then I've seen it the other way where it is a partnership and business development is a partnership to at the end of the day, we're managing the expectations of the organization with the expectations of the clients with the capabilities of the operations team, and I always talk about it's like a big three legged stool.

And if any of those air off balance, the whole thing crumbles. And so in business development, I totally understand that managing the middle ground because that's what we're doing as well, just on a different side.

Ashley McKarney: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I often find in that triangle, if you want to use that, that image, you've got the business development individuals that are confident what they sell, they're confident in the business, they're confident in the service, and they're making good relationships.

And I've noticed that oftentimes it breaks down in the transition of, okay, you've worked BD rep, I'm going to sell you, I'm going to sign the contracts, we're going to set all the parameters, and then here's your ongoing. Consultant or account manager or whatever and the breakdown happens during that handover and it becomes clunky or it becomes repetitive or the client doesn't feel heard or worst case scenario, the BD individual made promises that the organization can't keep right?

And so I've made a concerted effort and it is. Part of, you know, our biggest challenge is making sure that transition works well, because I can't manage all 45 or 50 of our clients myself, plus our team. And so it, you know, we've tried to really make sure that handover process is. Even if it's a lot of crossover and a lot of repetition, I can have confidence and the team can have confidence that we are all on the same page and those balls aren't going to get dropped.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes, agreed. And one of the other challenges that I see regularly is that we don't have dedicated account management, which, wherever possible, as soon as a company can afford to do so, they should, because Then it allows your BD person to be really great at the new business development, which is where you need them.

And you have the account managers really managing that relationship once it's established. And you have, you know, an operation going or a new customer, and you can make sure that they're getting the attention they need. Your new business development is getting the attention it needs, and it just flows better that way.

One of the other challenges that I've seen kind of regarding that stool method is that the business development person ends up becoming the go between. So where you have, you know, upper management saying, we want to meet these lofty goals. Here's the targets we want you to take on. Go and get as many as you can get.

But then you go and sit down with operations and you're like, Hey, like this is my instruction. And they look at you like with wide eyes and they're like, we can't do that.

Ashley McKarney: We don't have capacity to take on that many clients.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, we don't even, we don't have that model or we can't support that growth.

Like we can only do like maybe a quarter of that. And that ends up being a challenge. So my other piece of advice to people listening today is make sure that you know, high level management that you are having, you know, weekly updates, at least with your operations team to better understand what they can support before you decide that you're going to implement a new lofty goal.

Because while I love executing lofty goals, It can be, it can be bad. It can be very bad for your company if business development is successful and you are not prepared for it.

Ashley McKarney: Well, and I think, you know, focusing from that back to the HR piece is I have seen countless times where the BD and leadership team are pushing as we referred to earlier with a strategy or KPIs or targets.

And they're not actually talking to those frontline staff that are getting all those increased work levels. And if those staff have capacity, great. But if they don't, you're now further disengaging them because A, they're overworked. B, they don't know how they're going to get all this done, but it just keeps coming.

And C, they don't feel heard. Because they're trying to say, I need help, but they're not getting the help and they're not being asked, how come this isn't working? Right? And oftentimes there's that disconnect, as you said earlier, especially in large organizations, when the right hand is up here at the boardroom table and the left hand is doing the work, right?

There's a lot of people between those steps that need to be heard. And usually it's budget. Usually it's resourcing, right? Accountabilities, things like that. And being able to Come full circle and bring the right people to those planning conversations will only benefit the organizations in the end.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, and I want to get on that front line because you know, we've all heard about the labor shortages, especially here in alberta what's going on? What's happening there?

Ashley McKarney: Yeah. And I mean, again, we're not headhunters, so, you know, we don't have the biggest pulse on recruitment, but it is what we do for every one of our clients.

And, you know, I think there's, I think there's challenges at all levels. Frontline workers, yeah, there's, there's a lot of, I'm going to leave you for 25 cents or no, I don't feel like working today. And I got a call from a random employee the other day from a non client saying, what, if I don't want to, Go to this job tomorrow.

What's my legal requirement? I'm like, okay, so you're in your 90 days. You don't have a legal requirement. Just call and say, I'm not coming back. But the world is small and people talk and Edmonton's a lot smaller than we think it is. And you will get a reputation right? Depending on the level or industry that you're in.

And so I think, you know, A lot of the working population right now that's entering the workforce or at that lower level is very transactional, wants those quick wins, wants that, you know, recognition, but they also have a little bit of unrealistic expectations with how much they. Should be earning and what they should be doing, right?

And a lot of people are going into entrepreneurship, solopreneurs, starting their own business, trying to be a consultant. And if it works great but you know, I think frontline workers is a huge challenge and, and there are great ones out there, but people are also looking for gig economy workers and LMIAs and foreign worker applications.

And, and so I think it's, it's forcing organizations to innovate and be open to new opportunities.

Kelly Kennedy: I was just going to ask that, like, how does an organization overcome that challenge? Because, you know, I mean, I've talked to lots of business owners who are like, Kelly, I want to grow, but I can't, cause I can't find the people.

It can't be more, it can't just be throwing more money at these people. So how do you, how do you overcome it?

Ashley McKarney: Yeah, it's definitely not throwing more money. I mean, you want to make sure you're competitive and you want to make sure that you've got that competitive advantage, which dangles some sort of carrot that makes you different.

But any employee that says, Hey Kelly, you know, I, I, I'm kind of done today. I quit. And then you throw They're not staying long. They were already on that train out the door. That money is just a band aid. So, you know, be careful when you do that. But I think, you know, there's a lot of ways to step back and look at a business and re, or look at the organization.

Organizational design of it. Pardon me, but we are so often in the thick of the day to day hamster wheel cycle of our business that it's very hard to step back and look at it objectively. So whether you do that at a retreat or you use a consultant or whatever, you know, let's talk about innovation and AI, right.

And technology. So many people are scared of all of this AI and technology that's coming in. And the frontline employees are freaked out because they're like, that's going to replace me one day. Right. Yeah. Let's take a different approach. Let's be strategic and figure out how technology and automation and A. I. Can impact our business. Let's find those key performers and rock stars within our company and let's promote them to do something else while the A. I. Does the rudimentary things because A. I. And technology is not going away. And if we don't embrace it and find a way to innovate around it with our people, then we're going to create a culture of fear.

People will be quitting or looking for work while you're innovating because they don't know how it's going to impact them. And at the end of the day, the what's in it for me conversation is imperative. And so I think stepping back and thinking, how could we do this differently? How have we always done it?

What's worked? What could we challenge? And who are the right people to bring those innovations to the table in a brainstorm discussion, if nothing else?

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes, we have those open conversations with me and my staff as well, where we talk about how do we use this as a productivity tool, because that's what AI really is.

It buys us time to do more effective things elsewhere. And I have, I have never seen, you know, more of an example of that than in this podcast, because in the beginning, you know, transcriptions were a pain in the butt. It took a while. You had it had a lot of errors, a lot of mistakes, and it became as insane time suck that now can be done.

It's still a bit of a time suck, but it's done a lot faster. And you know, we can help us with summaries or other things like that. So, you know, I always kind of pitch it out to Cole or whoever else we're working with it is if there is a way here to improve. Our process. I want to know about it because I want to trial run it because we need to always be looking for.

How do we increase productivity? And I think that workers should not be afraid of A. I. Replacing them. What you need to think about is how could I get more out of my day if I implemented A. I. So that the time that I have can be better spent doing human things.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah, yeah, and a couple things I'll, I'll touch on there.

One is one of the things we get all the time is, well, AI created the resume, AI created the cover letter, right? I'm doing a virtual interview, so that person could be reading their answers off the internet or off a prepared thing. Okay, great. We can all have an open book test and probably pass. But how do we innovate our recruitment process to challenge the critical thinking and application of that human's knowledge and expertise, right?

So it's no longer just a, Hey, let's have a conversation. Let's interview you. How would you handle this situation? Okay, you're hired, right? How do you implement a coffee with that person? I've had some salespeople go for coffee. with the candidate in their car, because now you're going to see how they, you know, manage their car.

Is it clean? Is it messy? Do they drive fast? You know, do they obey safety? Go for lunch with them and the team that they might be joining. At Involvi, we do a case study. So here's a case study of a couple HR scenarios in the final interview. Talk to us about how you'd approach them. Yeah. Because they can't.

Fake that they can't get a chat GPT to tell them that and we won't know it as professionals going. Oh, that's really rudimentary. And that's textbook, right? I interviewed a 4. 0 GPA student back back in my early career and I said, so how would you handle a difficult employee if you were managing their performance?

And the person said, well, my textbook said I would take steps 1 through 4 and this is step 1. This is step 2, And I said, Okay, I appreciate that. But how would you apply that? And they said, I've never had a job, so I don't know. I'd follow the textbook. And so now we're looking for internships. We're looking for that learned experience and that practical application.

And I think that should be brought in to avoid the fear of plagiarism or chat GPT writing stuff for us.

Kelly Kennedy: You just touched on the younger generation, and that's something that I wanted to talk about. What has your experience been like in working with some of these newer grads? Maybe our 2000s generation, I'm not sure the exact letter for that, but ones that are 2010 and up, you know, 20, 2005 and up.

How, how, I know, don't worry, me too. Bye. But how are they like to work with or how are they integrating into the workforce in your experience?

Ashley McKarney: Yeah, and I, you know, I'm going to be careful not to stereotype because I think there's all the gamuts based on how you grew up, your value set, your family, your beliefs, your work history.

Like, so, you know, I want to be careful not to stereotype because I see them broken every day, but, you know, I think that generation forces us to think more on our feet, forces us to move a little faster brings new ideas. I mean, I've got a member on my team that is so techie that, you know, she comes up with things that I'm like, Oh, yeah, let's do that, right?

And so I work with individuals of the younger generation and or new out of school, regardless of physical age. Because they've got those new ideas, they've likely been introduced to that technology that somebody that's been doing certain things for years may not even be aware of, right? And so embracing that, empowering them to take on a project.

I'll, I'll give you another example. Hired a mature student from Nate and she's still on our team and she came in and and likely you talked to Justin about this, but how do we define culture, right? Whether it's in recruitment or performance reviews or expectations, that culture is a qualitative thing that usually is a feeling.

It's not. Here's an answer to a KPI, right? And so we created this culture book, and this culture book is not policy. It's not procedure. We do it through focus groups, and we figure out how to define the culture at that organization so that when somebody comes in, they get this digital book and they get a feeling of, oh, I'm going to be celebrated.

I'm going to be challenged. I'm going to be invested in. I'm going to have fun at work. The lunchroom looks like this or whatever the case may be. And so being able to define that culture, I think, speaks a lot more to that younger generation. We were interviewing a new client the other day and meeting with them and understanding them and they said, well, we need to hire these people 1st and then we'll figure out our culture as project 2 and I said, you know, I hear that.

And if that's your goal, we'll meet it. But allow me to challenge it because this younger generation that is coming in. If you sell them on a culture in an interview process or tell them what it's going to be like, and they get in and it's not that, they're the first one to say, Ooh, something's fishy here.

I'm gone. Right. And so putting that effort in and showing them the stability, the growth, the opportunity, and the ways that their knowledge can be utilized and enhanced, I think is where that younger generation is looking for their career to start.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes. I, you know, I mean, I don't think anyone likes being blindsided.

No! I think more so than ever though, agreed, more so than ever, you need to be congruent with what you are saying. Don't, don't be promising things you don't do. It's going to bite you and it's going to bite you in anything you do. So that's just a good way to live.

Ashley McKarney: Well, and if you say, you know, we have goals to get the company here, but today this is the realistic preview, then you have to also make sure that you've communicated how you're reaching those goals and that they see it because oftentimes it's those HR projects.

Unfortunately, that if you've got extra budget, it starts soon as the budget stops, the HR project stops. And then it's a lot of unanswered promises. Right. And that's any discipline. I've just got a lot of. experience in HR with it.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, no, for sure. And I want to get into that now. So bring us into Involvi.

I know that when we kind of started talking about this, I know that when you started Involvi, you didn't want the status quo. You wanted to disrupt things a little bit. Bring us back to what is Involvi?

Ashley McKarney: Sure. So, you know, going through my career and working in a variety of industries and a variety of leaders, a lot of it was larger organizations, North America wide, global public companies and a few not for profits and, you know, having that experience really It set me apart, I think for starting Involvi, but I always wanted to be an entrepreneur.

But you know, being the breadwinner, being, you know, a partner with my husband and making our house run, it's a big challenge, as you know, for going out on your own and not having stable income and going, I'm going to sell what I think is great. Let's see if people agree with me. And so, you know, when I was on maternity leave with my son, who's now four you know, I lost the job that I was on maternity leave from, and it was all good.

You know, we did it in the best way possible, but it left me sitting back going, okay, what do I do now? I, my son's six months old. I've got six months left of mat leave and I don't know what I'm doing. And so I took a leap and started consulting for a friend of mine that had a business and got my toes wet with it and I loved it.

And I sat back and thought, what do I want this next phase of my professional career to look like? And it was all surrounding impact and wanting to actually make impact and wanting to make those relationships better on a smaller local level. Because back to the widgets, that widget maker doesn't know what they don't know about HR law or humans or employees.

And if your server breaks, Most people are not going to go in and fix the server because there's wires and cables and data and electricity and all the things that we don't know about. Yeah. But in the same metaphor, if your people are broken with air quotes, you know, you're thinking, Oh, I've got spouse.

I've got family. I've got friends. I've got kids. I've had employees. I deal with people all the time. I can handle this. But you don't know what you don't know, and that's why, you know, we want to support that people operations as a function, not just the administrative side. And so, you know, I started involving in 2019 with a goal of supporting those leaders and just making a little bit more impact.

And I never thought I'd have employees, let alone nine. I never thought that we'd have a brand that's competing in Edmonton. For, you know, we're one of the top vendors for our HR managed service and for our learning and development and things that we offer. And I just really, I wanted to make impact.

And so I started the company when my son was six months old and believe me, having two businesses, as you're going to find out are two priorities. I should say, we are going to find out in about a month. It's really gonna pull you, right? Because you're growing a physical baby and you're growing your business baby at the same time.

Yes. And and so one thing led to another and we just started networking and started meeting some great, you know, organizations and and our services and our offerings evolved over time because I started with what I knew best and what I think. clients and companies would need. And then as we got more requests and more inquiries and more, you know, questions, we adapted our services to meet those.

And that's the beautiful thing about being a solopreneur is you can do that when you're small, right? And now we've got four core offerings that really cover the gamut of anything that. Client needs in any size of organization regarding their people and that will continue to evolve and, and we customize everything we do, which I think is unique to minus the gray hair.

It's given me, but, you know, I don't want to come into a business and say, here's your cookie cutter solution. Every business gets this. Where are you? And we're going to get you to the end point because. HR is a cost function, right? And we want to show that return on investment. We want to show that we're impacting their work life balance by taking some weight off, right?

And sometimes there's a lot of process, sometimes it's easy. But really, you know, understanding the needs of our clients and then Fitting solutions to those needs is really where, you know, we've, we've grown.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. And you've talked about your willingness to work with people and, you know, we've, we recognize that as well at capital.

We don't, we have, we have options, but they're always flexible because not everybody's needs are the same. And so as you know, like you said, as a smaller business, we have the ability to do that and, and you should, what have been some of the other business development techniques that have been you know, successful for you in your time of growing Involvi?

Ashley McKarney: Oh, boy, that's a long answer. You know, I think for anybody listening when I was in university you can call it egotistical or naive or whatever you want to call it. But I went to these meet the employer nights as a student and I shook hands and said hi to some presidents of national organizations and I left going, they'll remember me.

I'd follow up with an email and then I'd get disgruntled when they didn't remember me or when they didn't call me back, right? And naive to think that they're going to remember little old me from Edmonton when they're from Toronto or whatever the case may be. And so about seven years ago, I started to intentionally network and be authentic and be in rooms that I was passionate about and want to learn more about others.

And I think through that journey, I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about what I have to offer. And I learned a lot about who I want to work with and the people that I want to surround myself with. And those intentional networks led to great friendships, amazing mentors, amazing supporters as I started my business.

And I think going out and as you said earlier, believing in what you're selling, believing in the service and your team that delivers that service and genuinely wanting to get to know. Clients, their businesses, their cultures and who they are, I think has taken us to where we are rather than, Hey, we've got this offering.

Do you want to sell it? Do you want to buy it? What do you want to do? I'm going to follow up a hundred times. If you ghost me, I'm still going to follow up. I don't have time for that because I, I want to work with people. I don't want to spend my time chasing what might be a really difficult client at the end of the day.

Right?

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. And that's that's the other side of it. It's like if you pitch something five times and they're still not buying, even if you got them as a client, is that really the client that you want? Because you know, it's going to be tough.

Ashley McKarney: No. And if you're entering into a relationship like that, and you're pressuring them to call you back or go for a drink or meet you, right?

And they actually do, you don't know if they actually want to be there or not. And you're gonna leave probably thinking I killed that. And they're like, Oh, God, now she's off my back. Right? You know, that's never the position I want to be in and, and when in doubt, I would say I offer free help to start because, you know, supporting the people operations of the HR for a client is what you'll experience.

The first time you have to hire a babysitter to watch your newborn, right? It's you need that trust. You've got their whole life in their. Control or in their partnership, and they're trusting us to hear complaints from the employees and also back up the leadership team. They're trusting us to talk to them about risk and opportunity and give them good advice and that trust takes time to build, right?

And sometimes it's really easy and sometimes it, it takes a while but being able to do that and do it authentically and just be there to help them sometimes just takes, Hey, yeah, I'm going to lend an ear. I'm going to give you some free support. I don't. You know, I care if we work together, but that's not conditional on this free support, because at the end of the day, we want to add value and we want to give them peace of mind.

And I, I and my whole team value that over a quick buck.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes, I agree. I agree 100%. You know, I mean, an hour of your time and a good conversation, if it helps people, it only, it only serves you. It only, it serves everybody really. It's, it's a benefit to all. And, and you know, nobody's time is, is, is not worth just an hour of a quick conversation if you think you can help someone.

Ashley McKarney: Totally, and, you know, I think entrepreneurship is a lonely world, right? We have our mentors, we have our spouses, we have our employees, but being an entrepreneur or a solopreneur. yOu don't know what you don't know, and sometimes it just helps to vent. Sometimes it just helps to talk through something and give that person some confidence.

And sometimes it's just nice to know that that there is a phone call you could make if you need that help. And that's where my love for people and helping people has come in. And now we've just been able to do it on an organizational level rather than me being a psychologist or a coach or a one on one, right?

So yeah, it's just a different way of, of supporting people.

Kelly Kennedy: That's been one of the biggest blessings of having a show like this is that so many people and you know, I mean, I'm so proud of the people that have had the courage to reach out to me because I know that it can be a daunting task. I know I struggle to do it.

So when people reach out to me and say, Hey, Kelly, you know what? I know that you could potentially help me with this. Here's a challenge people know if they reach out to me on LinkedIn, I do typically respond back and try to give them some help because I would want to help myself.

Ashley McKarney: Well, and there's so many vendors, organizations, you know, companies that just want to help budding entrepreneurs, whether it's.

The venture mentoring service through the U of A, whether it's, you know, we deal with Scotia Bank and they've got a women's initiative. So they support specifically women entrepreneurs through this and help them get credit banking, everything they need and hold networking events, right? To bring the community together.

There's other community events where. It's not a formal event, but it's come and meet like minded people, right? Doesn't matter the industry, doesn't matter what you're selling because you never know when a, I can refer you as a business development, fractional support, or you could refer me, or maybe there's two business development people in my life and you fed a client and the other doesn't or vice versa.

I'm not then I'm vendor agnostic, I guess I could say, because it's about fit. It's not about, I need to work with you. If I'm not the best vendor for you, I probably know somebody that is. So let's just get you the help that you need.

Kelly Kennedy: Well, and I was going to say, I don't think I've ever felt a negative of any type from having too many connections of people that I can reach out to.

Ashley McKarney: Right. Yeah. And as long as you're transparent and people know it's. about the best fit, not about, I'm going to give you all the referrals, then you're getting more than a warm or a cold lead. You're getting a look. I trust and like this person. And I think you should do business with them.

Kelly Kennedy: Absolutely.

Absolutely. There's nothing more valuable than that in the business world.

Ashley McKarney: No. And there's so many trailblazers that I can do it, or I'm going to be a vendor and I'm going to do this and it's hard to vet them nowadays. Right. And it's hard to trust. And I have been. We'll call it screwed over by a few vendors that I quickly trusted, right?

And I've learned my lessons and, and I can share those experiences and I'm sure I'll be burned again. But you know, we have a lot to learn as entrepreneurs and it's, it's a never ending journey.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. And I think You know, with regards to that, that's going to happen. But I do think that more people want to do, want to do well than want to burn you.

And I think that is us to the whole situation. Yeah, you're probably gonna get burned a couple times. But most people want to deliver most people want to do what they say and do a great job. So I rely on that solace anyway.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah, yeah, no, you're right. And I think, you know, going back to involving and who we are with your initial question, I think You know, there is a lot of clients that we support just on the transactional level, right?

Come in, do some policies, do some recruitment, manage my team, hear some complaints, you know, heaven forbid, do an investigation, right? You know, there's a lot of clients that we just help in those scopes and that fills our buckets too. And so, you know, whatever the support is. I Think there's a gamut that we can offer and, and I don't want to scare people away by saying we don't do the traditional stuff because we do, we just want to help them innovate so that that company is around in 5 to 10 years because we never know what's coming down our path.

And I don't think any of us expected the pandemic and. I started the company the month before the pandemic officially on LinkedIn. And that was scary.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yes, I did. I did too. So we, we launched December of 2020. So I I'm right there with you.

Ashley McKarney: Yeah. I launched well, soft launch, September, 2019, hard launch, February, 2020.

I was in Palm Springs thinking the pandemic is going to be two weeks. No big deal. Yeah. And then I looked at myself and go, why am I starting a company that requires human connection in the middle of a pandemic? When we. can't meet people, you know, as an entrepreneur with that passion, you just keep going and you keep pushing.

And, and yeah, I'm, I'm grateful for how it's grown and I'm grateful for, yeah, the whole team and the journey itself.

Kelly Kennedy: Me too. Me too. I totally agree. Yeah. Well, that brings us to the end. However, I do have one final question. If you go back and give yourself right at the beginning of that pandemic, when you started Involvi.

One piece of advice, Ashley, what might that be?

Ashley McKarney: One piece of advice. Boy, there's a lot. I would say don't be afraid to ask for help and always be open to feedback. I think a lot of people when they're pursuing their passion or their dream, feedback can become personal, feedback can become degrading, or, ooh, I did that wrong. But none of us are perfect.

And there's a lot of people out there that have done it before. And I think those people that are open to feedback, open to learning, open to, Hey, have you done it a different way? They're going to grow their business faster. And then be true to yourself, follow your gut. I've not followed my gut and I always regret it.

So being able to do that and trust yourself and learn and don't be afraid to fail. I know you asked for one, but I've given you three like fail forward because failing makes better building blocks and helps you learn. And it's not a failure because we fail every day and you just have to embrace it.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. No, that's amazing. Do you guys operate across Canada right

Ashley McKarney: now? Yeah. So Involvi is based Edmonton and surrounding areas. So we have about 45 or 50 clients that we support on an ongoing basis. Mostly Alberta based, but we do have Western Canada based and scoped clients. We have some clients in Eastern Canada and we even dabble in the U. S. a little. We won't do U. S. compliance per se, because every state and federal piece is you know, very different from Canada. But we can do learn leadership development, learning and development, culture, other programs across the border. So we're not Alberta specific for sure and we're not industry specific as well.

Kelly Kennedy: Okay. Amazing. And if people want to get ahold of you, Ashley, what's the best way?

Ashley McKarney: Yeah. The best way is check out our website, which is newly going to be revamped. So we're launching a new website, hopefully in November. But it's Involvi.ca. You can reach out to us through that. You can find me on LinkedIn.

We've got our Involvi page as well as my Ashley McKarney page. And there's phone numbers and emails to get ahold of us as well as a contact page. So we'd love to have any conversations with anybody that's interested.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. So if you need HR services, InvolviHR, Ashley's amazing. And it's been an absolute pleasure, Ashley.

This has been episode 82 of the business development podcast. We've been blessed with Ashley McKarney, president of InvolviHR. And until next time, we'll catch you on. The flip side.

Outro: This has been the business development podcast with Kelly Kennedy. Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization. Is in customer relationship generation and business development. The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your Business Development Specialists. For more, we invite you to the website @ www.capitalbd.ca. See you next time on the Business Development podcast.