From Understanding to Action: Pioneering Neuroinclusion with Crystal Bowen

From Understanding to Action: Pioneering Neuroinclusion with Crystal Bowen

Kelly Kennedy: Welcome to episode 122 of the Business Development Podcast. In today's expert guest interview, we're chatting all about neurodiversity with the founder of Delta Learning Solutions, Crystal Bowen. Stick with us. You're going to love this episode.

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Let's do it. Welcome to the business development podcast, and now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly Kennedy: Hello, welcome to episode 122 of the business development podcast.

And my gosh, do we have an absolutely awesome, awesome episode for you today. They, we have an amazing expert guest, Crystal Bowen. Crystal is an accomplished neuro divergent learning specialist and the visionary founder of Delta Learning Solutions, where she pioneers neuro inclusive universal design standards and training with over a decade of experience in learning design and a lifetime of lived experience and an individual with ADHD and Autism.

Crystal brings her uniquely empathetic and insightful perspective to her work. Her mission revolves around empowering individuals to actualize their potential through innovative and inclusive learning solutions, firmly believing in a society where equitable opportunities are available for all.

Crystal's expertise Lies in boosting diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives within organizations, enhancing professional development through competency frameworks and delivering effective instructional design solutions tailored to meet the needs of a neuro diverse workforce. Through her leadership and dedication, Crystal is actively shaping a more inclusive future, one where every individual is valued and supported in reaching their full potential.

Her commitment to neuro inclusion extends beyond her professional endeavors, as she advocates for a world where diversity is celebrated and embraced in all forms. Her dedication to empowering individuals and fostering inclusive spaces underscores her belief in the transformative power of education and accessibility.

Crystal's visionary leadership and unwavering commitment to equity make her a driving force in the movement towards a more inclusive and equitable society. Crystal, it's an absolute honor to have you on the show today.

Crystal Bowen: Thank you for having me on the show. I am, I'm the one that's humbled and honored because it's not very often people like myself get to tell these stories and really pick apart some of the things that are driving barriers to inclusion and whatnot.

So, and it's pretty funny hearing all that wonderful stuff about myself. Thank you for saying such kind things.

Kelly Kennedy: Thank you for what you do. And thank you for bringing an awareness to something that, like I said, before this conversation, I've been in a lot of rooms, and this conversation rarely comes up, and yet it's so important.

And yeah, just thank you for what you do. I think what you do is very important. I think you're going to change the world, and you know, I had the pleasure of being introduced to you by a previous guest, Ruthann Weeks, in which case you actually have the chance to work with as well, don't you?

Crystal Bowen: Oh, she's the best partner in the world.

And later on in the show, I'm going to speak to. the incredible value she brings to our initiatives at Delta Learning Solutions. And we just couldn't do it without her expertise as well.

Kelly Kennedy: I had an absolutely amazing interview with Ruthann and Harmony in the Workplace is a really cool organization that she has as well.

And yeah, it's an honor to have you both. And so it's really cool to do this show. You know, we're going to get into it. You are neurodivergent I would love to just hear your story, but yeah, we'll get into it later on as to what that's been like for you through your career. But do you take us back to the beginning?

You know, who is Crystal Bowen?

Crystal Bowen: Who is Crystal Bowen? I was that odd kid. And it's funny, I was talking to my mom just yesterday about some of the labels I had as a child. Things like gifted, things like a bossy, right? You know, that one with leadership. Things like they thought I was hearing impaired, but it turns out I found out later in life.

I just have auditory processing differences, and I didn't know my brain didn't know what to do with the buttons. Yeah, so I had all these treatments and yeah, so it was interesting as a kid. I didn't really conform to typical gender things like I was that. Girl playing with the boys outside in nature, getting my hands dirty, tinkering with things, taking apart, you know, lawnmowers and stuff like that.

We grew up, my, my family grew up in so when I was really young, we lived on an acreage in BC. And so all that exploring and just being outside all the time really, really helped with just me being autistic and ADHD, cause those are. therapies they recommend, right? And then, later on in life, we moved back to Alberta, where my grandparents and my relatives own a lot of farming area and were settlers in the area and what not.

So, again, hanging out with the animals, doing really heavy physical work and what not. But as a child, I was considered gifted, and I think that's why nobody realized that I was Autistic and ADHD at the time, because, and it's happened to a lot of Autistic people that have that label, and because we were excelled so well in certain areas, that we didn't get the supports and, and the Challenges we were experiences were dismissed because, oh, but look how great you are and all these things, right?

But I'm really grateful. My mom has Really? She's a psychologist and a teacher and even though the the DSM at the time didn't recognize Me being autistic, she still naturally provided the things I needed throughout my trajectory of development instead of just going with the typical development thing.

She saw me as the individual I am, and nurtured me. She helped build strong resilience. I was I was isolated and excluded socially as a kid. I mean, I connected more with my teachers because the exchange of information is kind of my love language than I did with my own peers in school. And I hung out with the boys a lot.

I found that boys communicated more directly. They expressed emotion very much the same way I did. And I didn't understand the social politics of girls my age and whatnot. And that's okay. Like in high school. You know what? I was, I was weird. I'll own that one and I'll never forget the day that I just kind of came to accept that, but I hung out with the boys.

My grad was spent climbing trees out in the bush instead of going to the party where we'd go skateboarding and see bands and, And what not, but we were always outside and I'll have to say, when we had our jump off the swings to see who could get the farthest distance with all the boys, I had the record.

So, so that was my childhood. I excelled really well in school. I was always reading. I remember my idea of play was very different than the girls, my age. I play teacher with my sister, my little sister, and I had this black Bristol board that would like a chalkboard, and I was teaching her from my mom's university biology and physics textbooks at the age of eight, you know, and it's interesting, my mom, I got Pulled into a study at the U of A just because of the way my brain thinks and the way I categorize information and can see iterative details and that they after they After I ran through the research study They were so amazed because I could do this thing called mind mapping and isn't that such a handy skill productivity skill?

we use in business and in Workplaces today, you know, so my brain just naturally does that and You It can't think any other way. So that was my childhood. A lot of a lot of unresolved trauma in my family and unidentified neurodivergence can cause a lot of challenges and the intergenerational impact of all of that.

I'll be the first to say my upbringing was dysfunctional in many ways, just like a lot of people can relate to but a lot of love. A lot of love in my immediate family. And yeah, that was my life.

Kelly Kennedy: You know what? It sounds awesome. Actually, it really does. Like, it sounds like your childhood was, you know, while it may not be I don't want to say not typical, because I do think that that is a very typical childhood.

Some of the things that you experienced were very much my own upbringing, and so I don't want to say not typical. To me, it sounds like a childhood.

Crystal Bowen: Well, to elaborate on that, it was a childhood where I wasn't forced to be anything but me. I was really empowered To just be me. And I had the right supports to make through some of my challenges and health issues and whatnot.

But yeah, I got to shine.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. Did we understand autism? At that point?

Crystal Bowen: No, no, I got left back at all of these things and I'm like, Oh, my little professor and teaching my sister university courses as play. Right? I'm looking at this and I'm like, how did they not know? I'm autistic. And even when I was diagnosed as an adult, my mom's I mentioned a psychologist and a neuropsychologist, she still, she wasn't sure.

And it took a while to convince her because when you look at the diagnostic criteria for autism, they were all framed by. People that weren't autistic guessing at what my experience is like, and so their interpretation and perception of it in, in all of the history of this diagnosis, diagnosis evolving they really didn't understand it.

And it's only been the last five years when actually autistic. Researchers and academics started doing the right research that we're starting to realize, oh, I don't have a communication deficit. I'm speaking another language, basically, kind of like between two different cultural social languages, right?

And so, Back then they only saw it as this hugely debilitating and they often confused things like intellectual disorders with autism. So now that now the whole medical community is scrambling because they're realizing we don't even know what autism really is. is. Yes, there's these social differences.

Yes, there's communication differences. Yes, there's different ways of processing language and information and our sensory experiences, but what is actually autism? Or is that sensory processing disorder, auditory processing disorder, or is that intellectual disability? So, So no, they did not recognize my neurodivergence, and like I said, I got the label of being gifted because of my spiky profile, and that's where they left it.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, I think it is so hard to understand, on both sides. Like, I think for an autistic person to understand and I don't know what the correct term is could you maybe let me know what the correct term is for someone who's not autistic?

Crystal Bowen: Oh, technically it's called allistic.

Kelly Kennedy: Allistic? Okay, so

Crystal Bowen: I just say non autistic because I think people would recognize quite easily.

Kelly Kennedy: Sure, sure. So like, I, I think what I was getting at here is it would be very hard for somebody who is not autistic to understand how somebody who is autistic is thinking. And vice versa, like how in the world are we supposed to understand each other, right? It's, it is one of those things where ultimately can science even get it right?

Because how do they know?

Crystal Bowen: Yeah. Exactly. How do you get it right? You get it right by prioritizing autistic voices and otherwise neurodivergent voices and let them describe their own experience. And that's one of the challenges with diagnosis for people later in life is that we didn't have the language around it.

It wasn't until I really joined the autistic community that I started realizing things. Oh, that's not typical. Or, oh, that's how I would describe it. Because, for instance I experience a really unique transcendence with sound that elicits such deep emotions and my whole body. is like every cell in my body is vibrating to it, you know, or, you know, things like I didn't realize this wasn't typical, but to check the temperature of things, I smell them, you know, so it's not until we actually get curious and start talking about these things that we realize that we're all individual in how we experience the world.

And we won't know unless we actually ask these people. And then you add. The trying to interpret and perceive and predict intention. You know, there's an even bigger gap there. So that curiosity piece and just actually asking, yeah, right.

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Like now I have to ask, how can you tell, like, to me, how do you tell the temperature or something by smelling it?

Is that like potentially a new sensory experience?

Crystal Bowen: It's just using my senses in a different way, right? Because the. The aromatics of the food changes as it heats up. Wow. The steam inside my nostrils gives me indication, right?

Kelly Kennedy: Wow. Wow. Yeah, like, you don't think about it, but yeah, you're right. It's almost like you're just using senses in a different way.

Crystal Bowen: And they're heightened as well. So, I can perceive, I perceive, Way more sensory input than a typical person would, right? So, and that's why, like, when you look back at it. Autism, ADHD, those things, they didn't start when our diagnoses started in the 1900s. These people have been around forever. And you look at the hunters, they had increased sensory perception and whatnot.

It's like when I lie on my back at the lake. During the season when all the, the fuzz is coming off the trees, not only do I just see that I'm, my brain is calculating how far they are from each individual one, how fast they're moving, what direction in space and time they're moving, and that's what my brain's picking up on.

It's not just something. Another one, driving down the highway at 100 kilometers an hour, because that's the speed limit in Alberta. And I look out the window, I can see every leaf on a tree, twitter at the same time. And I remember my doctor writing that down, and I was like, but don't, isn't that how people see the world?

Kelly Kennedy: It makes, it makes me feel like I'm not paying attention to anything.

Crystal Bowen: Well, and that's why, like, you know, there was interpretation in the diagnostic thing about us being startled or us being afraid of You know, jumpiness. My husband came around the corner, tried to make a joke and, and I literally jumped four feet off the ground.

And it's because of this added sensory input and like a blade of grass touching my arm when I'm not expecting it to make me pass out, there's one youth in my life that I know that I, I, I don't, I don't. think she's autistic. Maybe she is. I don't know, but she's been diagnosed with very severe sensory processing disorder.

And while they were sorting it out, she was having 200 seizures a day. All right. And when you look at the there's there's a high correlation between epilepsy and autism. Maybe those epileptic seizures are actually being caused by sensory overwhelm, which is a safety issue.

Kelly Kennedy: Interesting. Interesting.

Yeah, it's like very possible.

Crystal Bowen: Yeah, we're just starting to learn all of this now as research is emerging. And the reality is the diagnostic criteria aren't going to catch up for another 10 to 15 years, which makes it all the more important that we're talking about this in a workplace and business context.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes. One of the things that I think about autism is that we all have heard of it. I think we've seen it. But we don't understand it. Would you be able to potentially give us a definition of autism, and maybe just explain to us, and I know you already have a little bit, but maybe just go into depth.

What are these people experiencing?

Crystal Bowen: Okay, and I'll speak to all neurodivergent experiences. And as a lead in, for instance I experience sensory differences and some hypersensitivity, some it's just a different attention to detail and whatnot. However noise, sounds are a really big one for me. And and smells.

Smells sometimes. I'm either really underactive or overactive and I was speaking to a woman in my workplace who had a baby and her sensory changed and all of a sudden she became hypersensitive to smell, right? And the conversation she had with the employer was just, hey, I'm going through this. They made the building scent free.

But yeah. When I have the same experience, like we related to our neurodivergent experience together, I'm autistic, she's not, so it's, it's more important to talk about what kind of neurodivergent traits we have, because if you've met one autistic person, person or neurodivergent person, you've only met one.

So a lot of commonality, common categories, and that's what spectrum means. It's not a sliding scale of severe or low. It is simply different categories of common traits. And there's the executive functioning trait, which for instance, with PTSD, which is another neurodivergent experience and severe depression, That shifts within our brains too, right?

So, executive functioning, being able to plan time differences. I don't experience time the same. I literally have to watch the calendar, Outlook calendar, move the line down the thing, because I don't know how much time passes at all. Time, what's another one? We talked about sensory. We talked about, I mentioned language processing, right?

So a lot of autistic people, for instance, interpret. Language very differently, just like people from other countries. They can't do research on people with multi languages, just simply because it's altered their brain and how it processes language. Right? And so when, when you have a bottom up thinker.

Like me, and a top down thinker, like somebody who's not autistic, there's that disconnect in terms of not understanding each other's differences, right? So, I should explain bottom up and top down thinking. The way I process information is iteratively, from gathering all the details, to then understanding the concept.

Whereas most people take the concept and follow it. Find the details to fill in the concept. So it's just two different approaches to processing information both equally valid, both equally valuable, right? It's just all of our processes and everything are built around that. Typical top down thinking.

Oh, what are, oh, differences in body movement too. That's another big one, and that comes down to sensory as well, because of introception, how I feel the inside of my body, and proprioception, how I relate my body to the outside. other part of the world. So, I mean, I couldn't balance on one foot and I remember crying because my sister, my little sister could and I couldn't but it impacts things like that.

What are some other differences?

Kelly Kennedy: There's lots. Yeah, no, I'm sure there's lots. This has been a good example and I appreciate that.

Crystal Bowen: Yeah, there's, there's one more thing I wanted to point out though, like we're talking a lot about autism and ADHD, but neurodiversity in is a human rights movement. It's not a diagnosis or anything like that.

And the focus, it started with the autistic community because, because the autistic community is deeply marginalized. However, neurodiversity simply says that we just have brains that operate think, communicate, socially relate differently, right? And our sensory experiences are different. People that are schizophrenic, people that have OCD, people that have anxiety, people that have PTSD, it alters our brain pathways and the way that we, Auto autonomically go through life with things and how we experience things.

So that's considered Neurodivergence too, because most people don't experience that.

Kelly Kennedy: Sure, sure. Yeah. It's, it's a wide range. It's it's not one or two things. It's, it's an all encompassing thing and there's plenty you know, a different neurodivergent situations that people could find themselves in.

Crystal Bowen: Yeah. And the other quick thing to consider here too, is. Neurodiversity isn't black or white, like you said, it's a wide range of experiences, and when you start looking at the social biopsychosocial model of this, of an individual's functioning ability and whatnot, we're looking at the biological, which is being autistic, we're looking at the psychological, have I been provided with support in my life, or have I not?

Have I been given the tools to develop a healthy psyche or have I not? And then there's the social aspect, right? So it's, it's a, it's a movement to look at. beyond the biology of a person.

Kelly Kennedy: And I imagine too, that a lot of people who are neurodivergent are living with a bit of stigma and a little bit of shame, you know, whether, you know, not necessarily from the outside world, but that they feel about themselves, which must make life challenging as well.

Crystal Bowen: That's an interesting one to talk about, because when you look at the overlap of mental health issues and all of that with the neurodivergent population, and I have some stats to pull out, but it's the same across all of them. ADHD, schizophrenia, what we're finding is that it's that social piece that contributes to that, right?

And that, that is what actually lowers our functioning ability in many areas.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes. You were diagnosed late in life, right? You worked a whole career before, essentially, you were diagnosed. And you were diagnosed, correct me if I'm wrong with ADHD and autism, correct?

Crystal Bowen: And complex PTSD. And I have a tic disorder.

I now have a nervous system disorder as well. And I can give you a whole list of things.

Kelly Kennedy: Sure, sure.

Walk me through your work career. What was that like? Essentially before you understood,

Crystal Bowen: You know, it was interesting 'cause it, it's interesting how I chose careers like carpentry, right? Or environmental technology where I was working out in a mountain, hiking around all day and, and.

It really nurtured my neurodivergent traits, right, so that doing heavy lifting and stuff is actually something they recommend for sensory integration and whatnot, you know, working with male dominated traits and me choosing to do those kinds of things. They're direct communicators. They don't have the social emotional drama to the extent that, you know office settings do, for instance, and so it was interesting that I chose careers that just really allowed me to thrive.

The things I had a challenge with though is, is so because my brain spends a lot of time at the. Bottom part of the thinking, the details, the planning, and making sure it's executable. I had a really tough challenge with tailgate engineering is the slang for it, when there's plans up and change, or I had a problem with poor management people not planning things out properly, and then asking me to do things that didn't make sense.

Like, I literally, and I've gotten fired for this, but I literally cannot do a really crappy job at something. It's just because I know and I can see it can be done better, right? And just arbitrary things that other people are able to go along with. I mean, I had a lot of challenges in the workplace with that kind of stuff.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Do you think that other, that other employees that worked with you understood that you were neurodivergent or do you think that. They may have just came to other conclusions.

Crystal Bowen: Ah, I don't think they knew enough. We didn't know enough about neurodivergence. Like, the more people I talk to, they're like, maybe I should go get assessed.

And it's like the trend where parents that get children, having children that are diagnosed, they start questioning their own existence. What I would say they recognize is that I was a very unique individual. Crystal is crystal, right? And there were some that accepted it. There were some that felt threatened by it.

I've experienced a lot of aggression and violence towards just. Accurate details. Well, actually, you know, and so journeyman and stuff like that would be like thinking, feeling to my understanding of this. What I've learned since is that they they're feeling threatened by it because I'm challenging their authority.

I'm challenging their competence. And that's not what I'm doing. I'm just adding to the story of giving you good details that you're not seeing. That's all right. So you know, That is part of what my trauma is surrounded at, is those miscommunications being blamed for it, right, when it's really communication misunderstandings or a two way, two sided perspective taking is often at play, right?

So, so it was a challenge in those ways. And then, of course, the intersectionality of being a women, women in the trades, obviously. created a lot of barriers for me. But I did, I did find really good mentors in my life, people that saw the potential and understood inherently my intention of sharing these details and didn't feel threatened by me.

And I'm so grateful to those people in my life.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. And you've had an absolutely amazing career, by the way, I had a chance to go through you know, all of, all of the various jobs you guys have done or that you have done, sorry. And Yeah, it's, it's very impressive, you know, despite having neurodivergent challenges, despite fighting, you know, ADHD and your tic disorder and OCD, you know, you had an absolutely and are still continuing an amazing, amazing career that you should be incredibly proud of.

Crystal Bowen: Well, and I want to clarify here. I don't see it as despite of like these are inherent Abilities that I have that have allowed me to, for instance, when I was working in Lake Louise bringing them to the point of winning the Banff National Heritage Award for Best Environmental Management Practices, going from Parks Canada really had a skeptical look about issuing permits and taking them that far in the course of just a couple years, you know, it's, it's an ability and the adversity I face is not Being autistic or ADHD, the adversity I face is being in a world that's not designed for me, that doesn't appreciate my abilities and sees them as less than.

Kelly Kennedy: Sure, sure. I do apologize if I offended you.

Crystal Bowen: I appreciate hearing that. It's not very often we get apologies when people say things like that. But I appreciate it, but it's, that's the general consensus of society, and that's the narrative by non autistic people that's been pushed out there for so long.

I'm living with autism. No, I'm living with discrimination and harassment. You know, those are two different things.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes. Like I said, I think, I think it's talked about so little, and it's so misunderstood by, by my side of things, that it, it is very hard to communicate and communicate. And you can tell I'm being very careful with the things that I say because obviously I don't come on this show trying to offend anybody.

I'm definitely trying to understand. And I think sometimes in that understanding, these things come out, the, the misunderstandings between the two sides. Like there's no way to kind of do it without having that happen. But yeah, it is one of those things where like, from my side, it does look like it would have been a challenge.

It would have been an adversity for you. And you're like, no, the adversity isn't in it. The challenges that I faced, it's that the world is not designed to work with me.

Crystal Bowen: Yeah, exactly. And this is exactly what that conscious awareness pieces is recognizing that, yeah, maybe I, maybe I am thinking of this from a bias perspective.

You mentioned how difficult it could be for people to recognize that I'm experiencing something very different than what they think I'm experiencing. And that's called egotistical bias. Right? So I, I don't get overly upset about it. There's a couple PTSD triggers that I just can't be around. And I really appreciate having conversations like this because this is when we really start unpacking those things.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. And you know, I think it's with conversations like this, that the world is going to change, that it is going to become more inclusive, right? But there has to be an understanding. There has to be an understanding. There's no way to get to inclusion without understanding the challenges that that other people are facing.

And so these conversations have to happen. And you know what? You're absolutely right as well. There is nothing wrong with you. It's it is about how can we be more inclusive. And, you know, on that note, take us into Delta. Take us into You know, how you ended up on this journey. I know you were, you had Carpenter Crystal, which was, you know, a public speaking thing that you were doing, you know, maybe start with Carpenter Crystal.

Crystal Bowen: So Carpenter Crystal was more than just a public speaking thing. It how do I put this? I used to be called the dissenter, but really I'm a nonconformist. I, as I mentioned, I don't do things just for the sake of doing them. And when I was up against, Barriers in the trades. It was a whole advocacy piece.

Like, for instance, I was always that apprentice or subordinate that would challenge ideas. And I remember going up against the, the International General President of the Carpenters Union when, when I went to, to leadership training there. And I asked him, because they were focused on Sisters in the Brotherhood, but they weren't seeing the big, bigger issue that this was an inclusion, a diversity, equity inclusion to all marginalized.

Because we don't, neurodiversity doesn't happen in a bubble. Women don't happen in a bubble, you know. And so I challenged him and I said, well, When are you going to start hiring diversity, equity and inclusion specialists like our clients are well, a year and a half later at the General Convention, I was so honored and pleased to speak to a resolution on developing a framework for diversity, equity and inclusion across the International Brotherhood.

So the carpenter crystal was more than just speaking. It's doing exactly what I do now with neurodiversity. But doing it with a different lens in the construction industry. So it's, it's basically me just yapping about the things I'm seeing and really seeing strategically and planting the seeds for commanding change.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. Amazing. Talk about some of the impact that you've seen, you know, that has been an outcome of this work?

Crystal Bowen: Of the neurodiversity and neuroinclusion work? We're not seeing a lot of impact yet. It's going to take some time. It's going to take some time. I'm really concerned because one thing interfering with serious measurable impact for the neurodivergent community is a lot of the performative neurodiversity stuff because neurodiversity, a lot of people are treating it as a buzzword.

And that's not helpful. It's harmful. You know, when we go and we give Okay. Employers and managers and supervise this checklist of this is what autism is. This is what ADHD is where we're not challenging them on the systemic issues and helping them build the skills that they need. To actually make a change, and because it's such a hot topic right now, it's really important that when we engage with neurodiversity, that number one, we have that psychological safety piece, because you can't have inclusion without psychological safety, and that's why Ruth Ann is my most trusted partner, because she brings that intersection of that.

So, I haven't seen a lot of measurable change. I would say the biggest shifts I've seen are with research now. Like, like I said, the medical community is scrambling right now to become neurodiversity affirming and research. Without and try to save some face, you know, they are the experts and yes, so they're scrambling and the research is starting to catch up to the real lived experience.

I'm seeing an uptake in employers. Being interested, right? So that initial awareness piece and, and I'm seeing an uptake in funding devoted to these types of social initiatives and entrepreneurships.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes. You know, we talked about this before, but do you have any statistics on neurodiversity?

Crystal Bowen: They're sad. Depressing, I was researching them for I'm doing a presentation on intersectional neurodiversity for policymakers next week. And so I was pulling out all the research like, It's astronomical, we don't even know how much, how many people are autistic in the world, like the growing number is, BC just shifted to 3%, up here in Alberta, we're still at 2%, but 2 percent is the globally accepted number, but again, it's based on access to food.

Access to assessment, accurate assessment which is a challenge here in Edmonton. I had to research because women people of the BIPOC community, because they were socialized different because they've had different social factors influencing their trajectory and because of. Marginalization in rural communities, not having access to a proper diagnosis.

There was only one in Edmonton that I trusted, you know, and it cost me $3, 500. So not everybody has that privilege. And when we look at neurodivergence as a whole, a well accepted one is 20%. Again, based on diagnostics, Australia, I think goes with 30%, but a survey, a study done with young. Entering the workforce people 20 percent of them identified as definitely neurodivergent, 50 percent of them identified as somewhat neurodivergent.

So, I mean, the fact is we're already here. We're not, I don't think we're exactly a neuro minority anymore.

Kelly Kennedy: No, that's huge. That's huge. And so what that means is guaranteed somebody you work with is, is, is neurodivergent in one way or another.

Crystal Bowen: Guaranteed. Guaranteed.

Kelly Kennedy: Guaranteed. And we don't even know?

Crystal Bowen: Yeah. And then the, when you start looking at the co occurrence of other neurodivergencies, other disabilities poverty, it's, it's astronomical. But I'll just bring out a couple stats that I think is really important to talk about in workplace settings is the trauma piece. Like, part of the reason where I'm at in my life and why Delta is here is because I, Will not succeed.

Cannot succeed in traditional workplace environments. They don't provide the sensory safety. I'm constantly experiencing micro microaggressions and having to coach HR and my manager just to realize that you're looking at this the wrong way of what I need and what not. So, The study that I like to go back to is of, first off, one thing to recognize is that neurodivergent people experience trauma from non DSM events.

Like, so there's those traditional ones like violence, abuse, and Tragic experiences that everybody's susceptible to it. We experience those far more intensely. But we experience trauma from other things. Like here's the list I want to point out. Listen to this. Social isolation, alienation, stigma, discrimination, betrayal, and loss of opportunity and self determination.

Getting to decide for yourself. For myself, how to manage around being ADHD and my executive function and somebody telling me and then telling me I'm less than because I couldn't do it the way they would. You know, but I could still do it. You know, one example I'll use is looking at documents. I have Irlen syndrome, and it's the way I take in light, and so black and white, scrolling through things, it just all blends in, and they had size 10 italicized font that just looked like a sea of words, no 130 page document with no headings, so I could just click through it, and I'd forget what I was doing two pages later.

And when I. Asked for, I had to reformat it so I could read it. It's a nice to have, not a need to have crystal, you know, so not being able to decide for myself how to flow through things feeling trapped, you know, transitional changes, that sensory trauma and hazards, you know, being gas lit because I know I'm experiencing my sensories when this hurts inside my head.

And people are like, oh, just suck it up, or, oh, no, it's not that bad, Crystal, and I'm like, no, but it is. And then social confusion, that communication piece about being blamed for things, or being called disrespectful for being direct, but it's a more efficient communication style, if you ask me. So, when we look at workplaces and the re traumatization we experience, All over again, every day of our lives in there, it's hard to heal from PTSD when we're being performance managed because of our, just simply our natural thinking processes, our natural communication processes, and our differences in behaviors and whatnot.

And those, you know, we really have to start thinking what is professionalism. And when you look at the stats for autistic PTSD, this is the big bang. Currently, 47 percent of autistic Or autistic people have a prevalence of 47 percent for current PTSD, like under the DSM. A lifetime of 64 percent of autistic people have PTSD in their lifetime.

Women are at 75%. Compared to the general population with current PTSD right now, it's only about eight or 9 percent last time I checked. So this is telling us that there's something happening throughout our society that's hurting people.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes. Well, like you said, it's just a complete misunderstanding, right?

If, for instance, if something that causes you PTSD or trauma does not cause me trauma, the assumption, and once again, it's an assumption that's happening on this side, is that it doesn't cause you trauma.

Crystal Bowen: Yeah, that's a bias.

Kelly Kennedy: And it's a bias. Right? And it's a misunderstanding.

Crystal Bowen: Well, and I'm going to add to that. I would challenge that it's not a misunderstanding. When I did for Delta, and we were designing our Neural Inclusion Learning Series, it's a competency based one, so it's founded on actual learning needs analysis and research. What I found is that it's not simply just a communication misunderstanding.

It all comes down to understanding. You, your skills, your ability to challenge your biases, your conscious awareness of your biases, your self awareness, and it's all these competencies that a person, if they just worked on that and focused inward, then all those misunderstandings would go away. You know, we have misunderstandings all the time, trying to communicate with my family members.

We know that we're. Just like if I were to go to another country, there's going to be those things, how we choose to respond and react to them. That's on you. And I don't mean you.

Kelly Kennedy: No, no, I agree. I agree. You're, you're absolutely right. How, how we respond to a situation, no matter who we are, is completely on us.

And we get to choose how we go about doing it. Agreed. Completely. Yeah. I think, like I said, like, you know, with the, with those statistics that you gave me, there is a massive amount of neurodivergent people. There's, there's so many that ultimately, basically wherever you work, Guaranteed, you're working with somebody who is neurodivergent, and there is just the, there's a lack of education about how to better interact with neurodivergent people, which is why I think what you're doing is absolutely amazing.

I think it's absolutely critical. And even if it hasn't caught on, it will catch on. There's no question in my mind. And you know, I want you to take me into you. Conscious awareness. What is conscious awareness?

Crystal Bowen: What is conscious awareness? It's basically a state of being mentally perceptive, like being able to see that other people could be perceiving it different or different.

You know, they're showing the behavior here isn't aggression, the behavior here is distress, you know, just being perceptive to those kinds of things and cognizant and that big piece of being self aware, self aware of how you exist within the neurodiversity paradigm. What's your privilege? Right? Where do you have an advantage simply because you think the way you do, or your body moves the way you do?

So that's conscious awareness. It's the state of bringing ourselves in to our own experience so that we can understand that other people have individual experiences as well. And from that human rights lens, recognizing that That you are privileged, right? For instance, one stat that I should have mentioned is, yeah, there's guaranteed some neurodivergent people in the workplace, but right now probably not that as many as there is in the general population because 66 to 85% of autistic people are unemployed and not because of our physical or biological disabilities, but because operating practices, are very different. When, when I started Delta, my multimedia specialist, doing this for 25 years, amazingly talented person, good at process, good at all of that. But my process as a neurodivergent bottom up thinker is very different. And being as my team is mostly autistic, I need to start, instead of forcing these people to operate to that process, I I need to start adjusting and adapting our processes so that it works for everyone.

So yeah, when you look at the unemployment rates of autistic people there really aren't that many of us in the workplace right now, and we're trying to improve that.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. And can we clarify why that is? Is that because there is a bias against neurodivergent people against hiring neurodivergent people?

Or is it the fact that workplaces are not currently designed to help them in the way that they process and think?

Crystal Bowen: All of that, all of the above, the biases in the hiring process, not prioritizing autistic voices, like, for instance, a lot of these neurodivergent programs and autism specific funded programs, when you look at the job description for recruiting subject matter experts instructors and whatnot, the focus is on people Having worked with autistic people, you know, and so even if I put in my cover letter, hey, I am autistic, and I will relate to these people in addition to having these expertise, so they're not even recognizing that these experts that they're looking for also exist within the autistic community.

And. That lived experience piece, they rely on people that aren't autistic to be the experts instead of letting us be the experts of our own life, right? So there's the bias, there's discrimination in terms of how we word things and how we recruit people. things are focused on qualifications as opposed to competency.

A lot of autistic people are autodidactic learners and a lot of ADHD years. For instance, if, if I'm not interested in the course, isn't moving fast enough, I'm not going to take it. I know what I, I know where my learning gaps are and I've read and self learned more than most people. So I mean, I don't have a degree.

But yet I'm probably more competent than a lot of the people with degrees Sure. In, in my field. So that focus on the wrong things as demonstrating qualification and competency is, is creating a lot of barriers too. So it's complicated. Yeah. When you look at the multi-facets of any marginalization, the systemic we call it systemic neuro ableism.

It's throughout our society, like when I look at policy, public policy, when, when they finally realized that autistic people and ADHD people are so experiencing a lot of disparities because of our systems, they decided to pass a bill in Canada to support a framework to be more inclusive of autistic people, but they're using things again.

That the autistic people don't want, that aren't a reflection of our actual barriers. So I'm really excited, after that bill was passed, McMaster University, and I think it was Autism Alliance Canada, conducted a national survey about the lives, the real lived lives of autistic people. And let me tell you, it was so liberating, telling my story there, so that their framework will be informed by what it is I actually need, not what they think

I need.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, yes. Well, you know, just in the terms of content, you know, like just out in the world, TV shows, you know, movies, autism is getting much better representation than it has ever had before.

Crystal Bowen: Still stereotypical, though. Still very stereotypical. I think one of the best ones I saw, and I connected with this autistic fella was Champions with Woody Harrelson, and all of the basketball team are all neurodivergent people, and I didn't, I didn't realize all of them were, and then when I was reading up on it afterwards, there was one character, and Woody, Woody Harrelson says something, and says something, and implies a different meaning to a word, And this basketball player says, well, actually, and, and I was just like, oh my gosh, that's me.

So being able to finally see real life, real me characteristics that are portrayed not through a stigmatized lens was pretty awesome.

Kelly Kennedy: I bet. I bet. You know, one of the goals with this episode was to give employers some tips. On how they can essentially be more inclusive on create a workplace that is more inclusive.

But you know, we talked about this with Ruth and and in a completely different context, I think what employers also need is just tips on how to recognize that the systems they have are not working or are not going to work with neurodivergent people on. I know I've asked a lot of you here. Please just run with it.

And You know, do do the best you can.

Crystal Bowen: Well, I'm actually prepared for this one. Andrew, Dan and I have worked very closely on examining the rules of engagement and the competencies that people need to develop to be inclusive. And I'm going to be really blunt here, and maybe people will find this offensive, but the solution really is leaders and people themselves.

When you look at the Kruger Dunning effect, You know how the less you know and the less you, but the more you think, you know, you're up here on the arrogance scale and they got to bring it down a notch. That's, that's the biggest tip I could give. There are certain, there are five things we came up with in our, our design based on research is the first, and I've, I've emphasized this throughout our talk, prioritize the minority voices, right?

Just simply acknowledge that you don't know. And you have to prioritize their voice practice the power of pause. I don't know if Ruthann talked about that one, but it's also something, a word we use that my therapist gave us just to help us realize that our nervous systems are going astray. But it also helps us looking at to your question about recognizing the systemic thing is don't rush through it.

Right? Don't call it good. Take that pause, take a step back and re examine it through the lens of the autistic community or the neurodivergent community that you're representing. Treat others as they want to be treated. And that piece about being aware and mindful of neuro minority, Traumas is pretty huge because, as I mentioned, we experience trauma, re traumatization from all kinds of things, like having our behavior and our communication managed with performance management systems in workplaces.

That is hurtful and harmful. And then learn about inclusive communication styles, right? We do it for people that have English as a second language. We can do it for neurodivergent people too. You know, and then looking at the competencies, there are competencies that can support you in doing those things learn to be vulnerable, learn to lean into the tension and the uncomfortableness of being confronted, like, Hey, Kelly, that I understand where you're coming from, but that's actually.

Quite wrong and hurtful just lean into that and have the conversation openly be in the business of always getting better know that like, we're not expecting perfection from any of you. We just want to see progress. We want to see learning growth in your skills and abilities to be able to do these things.

And a lot of people argue. Empathy is a big key. I would argue. I'd say that's pretty neuro normative empathy. Our definition of empathy is very neuro normative when it comes to social emotional relation, but be compassionate because compassion involves willingness and action and focus on yourself.

Really take that step inwards to understand how you're reacting to situations and responding to them from your perspective and whatnot. And always assume good intentions, right? Always assume, because like you said, how do we know what any other human is intending by their words or intending by their behaviors unless we ask them?

And the last one, this one I love, be you and be curious. Curiosity, the science behind it, is that it facilitates greater learning and it facilitates that inclusion piece of validating that other person. So that would be my advice is start somewhere, start with you, and you're not going to fix it all at once, but just start becoming more and more aware, consciously aware of all these moving parts of designs, of operating practices, of social expectations at work, just start to become more consciously aware of how every one of these things could be a barrier to someone else.

Sure. And unnecessarily look at like, what is it you're actually trying to achieve by that operating practice or that role and focus on that outcome instead of how to get there.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. I know one of the questions that I can already hear, you know, business owners asking is, is it even appropriate to ask how can we help our staff if they are facing a neurodivergent challenge?

Is that an appropriate thing to ask?

Crystal Bowen: Well, I'll frame it like this, and I'll let you answer the question for yourself, Kelly. Would you ask Your staff, if they were part of the LGBTQ plus community?

Kelly Kennedy: No, I wouldn't.

Crystal Bowen: There's your answer. Right. And with any marginalization disclosure, forced disclosure is dangerous and harmful, right?

There's a lot of reasons, like I've learned from my own experiences and this, the studies and statistics show this happens time and time again that, okay, so I can disclose, I can ask for accommodations. But just like that example I used about the pregnant woman, she wasn't put through the scrutiny of having someone else validate it for her.

And that whole accommodation process is traumatizing and dehumanizing. So it's not safe. And then what the studies show and what I've found is, okay, so I don't disclose and I'm criticized for all these behaviors. If I do disclose to help them understand it better, then I'm subjected to far more stigma on it.

And stereotypes and marginalization in preventing job opportunity, growth and opportunity for working on challenging projects. Like I had one manager say to me, it was actually the senior director. Oh, you must have such problems working on big projects like this. And I said, well, actually, no, I've, I thrive on it.

Cause my brain brings together all the moving parts and the details. And I love coming together with a good plan and then. Banging out this project, I said, my challenge is with the arbitrary changes in decision and arbitrary deadlines and schedules that the executive leadership is, is doing. I got fired the next day.

Wow. So, you know, but it's a valid point. It's a, it's a very valid point.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, no. And the way that you explained it makes a ton of sense. Like the reality is we have to just understand when people are or take feedback. Really, what you're kind of suggesting is just listen, listen to what people are telling you and don't just immediately deny them.

You know, try to be empathetic, try to be compassionate and understand That there might be more than what you understand in this moment going on here.

Crystal Bowen: And, and I would say not might, I would say there's most certainly, and with anything, like I can't, I can't begin to understand, and I will never truly understand what the Indigenous experience is.

For instance, Indigenous autism experience. They have a very different cultural perspective of what autism is. They have very different barriers to accessing support in the medical community overall, they have different experiences with, and barriers with accessing funding for this. They're like, here's another stat that shocked me when I was reading a study by Grant Bruno out of the U of A.

And the number of Indigenous people misdiagnosed with fetal alcohol syndrome, but who are actually autistic is really alarmingly high, you know? So, I can't even begin to understand what somebody else's experience is, but it's that listening piece, listening non judgmentally and without bias, believing people.

Right, just believe that that is what they're experiencing through their perception of their lived experience, and then being vulnerable to just even admit that, okay, I kind of screwed this up with this policy. Let's just fix it now, and then include that voice and get a different perspective on it.

Right. Like I said, hearing you apologize. It means more to me than you really know, because in all of the adversities and complaints. Systems I've had to navigate through the accommodation process, not once has somebody in a position of leadership or HR given me a genuine. Apology. And I get it because there's this stigma or this idea that if we admit we're vulnerable, if we admit we did something wrong, then there's all of a sudden legal issues.

Well, the legal issues are there. I've learned how to, and I teach people how to accumulate the evidence, right? But it's just, start with yourself.

Kelly Kennedy: I've made I've made plenty of mistakes, you know, in my personal life, in my leadership life. And yeah, the one thing that I've learned is that ultimately really the best outcome that you can have is really just be authentic and apologize and say, you know what, I screwed up and I'm going to own this and I'm going to do better.

And I think that's what real leadership is. It's not, it's not walking ahead. It's being able to own it when you screwed up.

Crystal Bowen: Yeah. And the idea that you don't have to have all the answers as a leader, like one thing that really. Notice, and Ruthann's talked to me a lot about this, is the impact of hierarchical systems, the top down type leadership styles, where the top people have to make all the decisions, have all the answers, and know everything, and do as I say, as opposed to like a chalice leadership, where, okay, what do I need to do to support you?

Right? So even our concept of what it means to be a leader, what your responsibility is as a leader, we could look at that, and I'm sure we'd come up with some really good examples on how to make it universally more inclusive.

Kelly Kennedy: Sure, sure. And I would argue that organizations are starting to get better at that.

Like the like, I think the realization that having your leadership making every single decision is not only ineffective, it's Yeah, it's not efficient either. And so it's much more efficient to allow the rest of your organization to be able to have some autonomy to make their own choices.

Crystal Bowen: Yeah, and when you have those things, and when you have a system that's inclusive of neurodivergent people, the studies out there show increased productivity business profit, anywhere from 30% To 160 percent in some organizations.

So really you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you think that you have all the answers, if you think that the way you're doing things is working well for you.

Kelly Kennedy: Absolutely. So take me into Delta. Why did you found Delta?

Crystal Bowen: I keep trying, as I mentioned, to do well in traditional workplaces. But because of the myriad of things we've talked about, there's no more hope for me there.

Right? And after going through two years of very solid, therapy to help heal some of the PTSD to help regulate my nervous system back to my baseline. What I've learned is that I'm very vulnerable in those situations and I keep going through this cycle of autistic burnout and dysregulation and mental health.

And it makes me sick and then it impacts my family. So I made a choice to design a life that works for me and what started as I just wanted to be a freelancer and work for myself from my home office, as I started doing the research for my market, for my business model and strategic plans and all of that, what I realized is that there are so many gaps that employers and organizations need.

That I can provide. So we, I ended up starting a team. I'm part of a network of professionals and experts around the world, working in so many different areas. And so, yeah, I'm providing multimedia and instructional design contracts for a team of all neurodivergent people, myself included, because we I like doing that stuff and it brings in money, but then we have that whole training piece with Ruthanne and I.

We're very excited for doing our strategic plan for this year. We're launching a national training institute on all of these skills, all of these things that will help inclusion in any area. Of marginalization, and then as well, we have the consulting piece, because like I mentioned, there's a lot of neurodiversity consultants out there that just jumped on the bandwagon, but they're the solutions they're recommending are actually causing harm.

So we do a lot of consulting, we do giving back to the community, for instance, we review public policy and help them see. areas that they could improve. Yeah, so Delta is this whole thing that just kind of grew into a revolutionary, very unique business model, but it adds challenges too in applying for grant applications because we have we have a legal responsibility to protect the psychological health and safety, to protect the sensory.

Safety of neurodivergent individuals to make sure that our clients and team members aren't re traumatizing them with those communication blames and stuff like that. Making sure our processes and our project management styles all fit within a neuro inclusive practice. So, there's a lot of challenges that come with it, but I think eventually this business model, this operating model, and this labour model are going to really take off.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. Amazing. Can we speak a little bit to the situations that an organization. Might not know it, but they need your help. So can we speak to those organizations who might benefit from hiring Delta right now?

Crystal Bowen: Oh boy. If you're experiencing any conflict or grievances or complaints or behavioral related performance management issues, you're going to want to call us.

Because until neuro inclusion and the standards of neuro inclusion become common practice within. every field of practice, there are things that people are overlooking. So yes, for instance, Ruthanne I've been coaching her on that intersection of neurodiversity with her practice. So we've been learning together all the different ways that maybe we're being a little less inclusive in how we perceive a situation.

So yeah, use us, our team, we have multiple consultants with us that. Focus on areas like accessibility, focus on areas of psychological safety and organizational culture, and then that specific having someone like myself be able to decode those communications and those behaviors so that everybody understands it differently, because it's very hard being a neurodivergent person in a Situation with power, differentials and dynamics happening to be able to express that and be believed.

So that is when I would say we at this point in time where we could add the most value to organizations and helping them come to the right solution, not just a checkbox

solution.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. Amazing. You know, Crystal, we're talking to. Thousands and thousands of people right now, and I bet at least a handful of them are neurodivergent, given the statistics we've just talked about.

Do you have something motivational that you can give them? Some tips? You know you've accomplished so much. You know, you started an amazing company. Let's inspire them. Can you give them some tips?

Crystal Bowen: Okay, a tip for our whether they're identified or unidentified, disclosed or non disclosed neurodivergent leaders.

Be patient, it will change. Know that you have agency. You are in a position to really set the stage for how things could be different. And to add voice at the decision making level. And be you. Be you because that honestly, the solution is not to adapt to the world around us. We've been trying that for how many years now and autistic people keep getting sick.

We're on a trajectory to die women, for instance, 13 years earlier than women that aren't autistic. So yeah, be you and eventually that tipping point will happen. the more voices that become public, we will cross that line of mediocrity, that line of status quo, where everybody's comfortable with neuro normativity, and we will make that shift.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. That's amazing advice for most people, not just neurodivergents.

Crystal Bowen: Well, that one is so meaningful to me, the be you. I won't get into that. That's another story with another avenue of work I do in the Ukrainian community pathankumaking community. But yeah, be you. And when people are not accepting you as you, own it as their problem, not yours.

Because like, you know, you were talking a little earlier too about that piece about late diagnosis and internalized stigma and stuff like that. There, there's a whole process I had to go through to To really dismantle the ableism I had inside my heart about myself and my confidence and whatnot. So yeah, just shine, be you.

Kelly Kennedy: I love it. I love it. Crystal, you know, I know we got businesses that are interested in this. They want to get ahold of you. What's the best way to reach you?

Crystal Bowen: The best we're leading, get sending people to LinkedIn right now. It seems to be a hot platform. Delta Learning Solutions there. You can email me at bowen@carpentercrystal.com and we do have a website right now. It's a carpentercrystal.com. However, with the launch of the National Training Institute and our learning management systems and everything we're in the process of updating our website and integrating all of that. So truthfully, it's a little, our website's a little embarrassing right now, but yeah.

Email me or reach out on LinkedIn at any time.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. Amazing. Crystal, thank you so much for gracing our stage today and teaching us about neurodiversity and just opening our eyes. I appreciate it immensely. This has been episode 122 of the Business Development Podcast. We've been graced by Crystal Bowen, the founder of Delta Learning Solutions, changing the world one company at a time.

Until next time, this has been Kelly Kennedy and the Business Development Podcast, and we will catch you on the road. The flip side.

Outro: This has been the business development podcast with Kelly Kennedy. Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation. And business development. The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your Business Development Specialists. For more, we invite you to the website @ www.capitalbd.ca. See you next time on the Business Development Podcast.