Lessons in the Losses with Steve Monk

Lessons in the Losses with Steve Monk

Kelly Kennedy: Welcome to episode 74 of the business development podcast. And if you have questions regarding corporate law, we have a show for you today. We have the founder and CEO of CEO Law, Steve Monk on with us. Stay tuned. You're not going to want to miss this one.

Intro: The Great Mark Cuban once said business happens over years and years.

Value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship, not by how much you squeezed out in any one deal. And we couldn't agree more. This is the business development podcast based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and broadcasting to the world. You'll get expert business development, advice, tips, and experiences, and you'll hear interviews with business owners.

CEOs and business development reps. You'll get actionable advice on how to grow business. Brought to you by capital business development, capitalbd.ca

let's do it. Welcome to the business development podcast, and now your expert host. Kelly Kennedy.

Kelly Kennedy: Hello, welcome to episode 74 of the Business Development Podcast.

And on today's expert guest interview, we have for you Steve Monk, founder and CEO of CEO Law. Steve Monk, LLB, MBA, PIENG is a distinguished figure in the fields of engineering, business, and law, serving as the CEO and founder of CEO Law. With a multifaceted background, Steve has seamlessly blended his expertise and experiences to lead and innovate in various industries.

His journey began with honing engineering skills in the aerospace sector at Lockheed, where he laid the foundation for analytical thinking, and problem solving. Furthering his trajectory, Steve pursued academic excellence, earning an MBA that propelled him to the executive leadership roles. He then took the helm of Wolters Kluwer, a global tech giant in the legal market, and played a pivotal role at Sprint Canada, contributing to the dynamic telecom landscape.

His unique blend of skills also encompasses a legal background from his time at Davies, Ward, and Beck, one of Canada's premier law firms. In founding CEO Law, Steve has established a company firmly rooted in a commitment to prioritize customer, employee, and owner satisfaction in that very order. His visionary approach to business, shaped by his diverse experiences, has gave him a profound understanding of the legal industry's landscape and the transformative potential of innovation.

Steve continues to inspire change, champion innovation, and reshape the legal space. Driven by an unwavering pursuit of excellence and a passion for creating positive outcomes for all stakeholders. Steve, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. How are you today?

Steve Monk: Well, thanks, Kelly. It's a pleasure to be here.

Kelly Kennedy: It is. It is awesome having you. And I'm really thankful to have you, Steve, because the legal side of things has been something that I intentionally have neglected. And I think because it's a really challenging side of business in general, and it's it's a show topic as well, that I definitely wanted to have somebody with expertise such as yourself to really kind of get into obviously what it is that businesses even need to be considering because I think this is something that.

Not just me, but lots and lots of businesses have struggled with what is the right time to engage a legal firm or or somebody in the process, but you know, like, you've had such an amazingly diverse career. I know going through your bio when I was ripping through it, preparing for this show, I was incredibly impressed.

And I did congratulate you before the show, but congratulations again on an incredibly amazing career. Diverse and impressive career.

Steve Monk: Well, thank you for that, Kelly. I really appreciate it. And I, yeah, I interrupted you there 'cause I was going to answer one of your questions that we'll get to later . Yeah, no problem.

but yeah. Yeah. But yeah, thank you very much for that. You your intro for me I think was maybe overstated, but I'm really happy to be here, . It's a, it's a real pleasure.

Kelly Kennedy: Well, I get that a lot. But you know what, you guys are experts for a reason and I'm never not impressed by your bios. Take us back to the beginning, Steve Lockheed, you know, like you didn't start out in the legal field.

Just bring us right back. It's an amazing story. Tell us right from the beginning.

Steve Monk: Yeah. Okay. So when I was growing up, my dad was an engineer. And so I think that was kind of a path that I was on. And many of my friends were also interested in becoming engineers. So I grew up in Kingston. I went to Queens.

Queens has a great engineering program. So I went through that. And when I was done, I went and worked at Lockheed. I wanted to go to Ottawa. So Lockheed was in Ottawa. That was a great place for me to go and it was a great job. But what I realized is that there were other people who were better at engineering than I was going to be.

And so I felt like I should change careers and do something else. And one example of that is we had summer students who would come in from Waterloo, and there was a guy Neil Schellenberger, I remember his name, and he was there, and one weekend I saw him he was packing up a, a chip catalog, and at the time they had these books that would include all of the information for various chips.

Microchips. Yeah. And I asked him like, Neil, what are you doing with that book? And he said, Oh, don't, don't worry. I'm going to bring it back. And I said, well, I'm not really concerned about you bringing it back. I'm just curious what are you, what you're going to do with it? And he said, well, I'm building a circuit board at home and I'm taking this book home so I can do some research and make sure that I have the correct chips.

And I just thought, you know, that guy should be an engineer because I was not building any circuit boards at home. I was, you know, on my way back to Kingston to visit my friends and have a, you know, have a good weekend. And I just felt like he was far more you know, involved in engineering than I was ever going to be.

So I thought about doing something else.

Kelly Kennedy: My gosh, Lockheed, like, you know. Unbelievable, by the way. Like, what was that experience like for you?

Steve Monk: Well, it's interesting to be in a company like that. That's a global company. And particularly if you're an engineer, it's, you know, it's interesting to be in a company where there are lots of other engineers and lots of great clients and there's, you know, good work.

I went to, I spent most of my time at Lockheed working with another big aerospace company called Lytton, Lytton Systems in Toronto. And so they had great clients and all of that was very interesting. But one of the things I realized, I remember they used to send around profiles of the top executives.

And one of the things I realized is that most of the executives had additional education that they had done other things. Maybe they got an MBA or things like that. And that made me realize that it probably was a good idea to think about more education because that might give me more opportunities.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. Take us to the next step.

Steve Monk: Yeah. So the next step was once I decided I didn't want to be an engineer, that there were others who were better at it than I was going to be I had always kind of thought about being a lawyer. So I decided I was going to apply to law school. And so I wrote my LSAT and I had a pretty good LSAT.

So I applied to law school. And at the same time, I thought I might as well write the GMAT. And so I did that and I did pretty well again. And so I decided I was going to look for a program that had both law and business combined. And so the first place I found was UVic. And I was really interested in going there because I had grown up in Kingston and went to Queens.

And so I thought I should go further afield. And so Victoria, BC would be a great spot. So I went out there and I really loved the first year of law. But the business program was just kind of developing. I was interested in that program because they had an exchange program that took people to Thailand.

And I was interested in going to Thailand. But I had been to Thailand. I, I went before I started law school. And I realized that Thailand's a great place, very interesting. But I didn't really want to spend a year there. So there I was at UVic and I didn't think that the business program was going to be the right one for me.

So I transferred to to Western and Western has a great business program, so that worked out really well. And then when I was done I got a job at Davies Davies Word and Beck which is one of the top firms in Canada. So that was, you know, kind of a, a good job to get and I was happy to get it.

And I went there and I found it to be a bit a bit overwhelming, to be honest in a big firm like that, you work all of the time. And so in my situation, and this was pre internet, so I think it's only become much worse. So in my situation, I had my own assistant from nine o'clock till five o'clock every day.

And then I had another assistant that went from five o'clock until midnight. And then they had a bank of assistance that went from midnight till nine in the morning. So they called it their continuous work day. Yeah. And you realize that when you have a continuous work day, you have a continuous work week and a continuous work life.

They brought us meals at our desk. They brought us, you know, donuts on Friday. We had a little cocktail party on Fridays. It was really set up so that you could work all the time. And I just found that to be kind of unsustainable. So I decided that I was going to leave and take advantage of the business degree.

So I left and first I went to call that Sprint Canada. And work there in in corporate development.

Kelly Kennedy: And, you know, your time at Sprint, that was 99 to 2000, right?

Steve Monk: Yeah, it was right in around there. So I was there for Y2K. Yeah,

Kelly Kennedy: and I was going to say that would have been like, you know, some of the pinnacle years for Sprint, wouldn't it?

Steve Monk: Yes, that's right. So afterwards, after I left, they were acquired by Rogers. So yeah, it was really a high time. It was back when long distance was the biggest thing in telecom. And so Sprint was really taking advantage of that. And then as we all know wireless you know cellphones became the big thing and Sprint did not have a position in cell phones.

And so I would say that really helped to accelerate you know, their decline. And then, yes, they were acquired by Rogers.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. It's so funny that you bring up that. I like, I go back to being a kid in 2000. I would have been like 12. I just, I still can think of like the long distance commercials on TV. I totally remember that.

Steve Monk: Yeah. And it was so expensive. You know, you would pay a lot of money for a long distance phone call. Like I remember the days when someone would be driving home. And when they got there, they would give you a call and just let it ring one time. And that was meant to tell you that they got home safely and you didn't want to pay for the long distance.

So, you know, it just seems like a crazy idea now, but when I was a kid, that's what you did.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, totally. So. What was that like hopping into the telecom industry? You know, I mean, that would have been a fresh foray for you as well.

Steve Monk: Yeah. So it was great for me. I was able to make kind of a nice transition because my background as a lawyer was very helpful.

So when I joined, they were just about to acquire another telephone company called And it was going to be a 1. 9 billion transaction, which at the time was the largest transaction that had been done in Canada and the telecom space. So I kind of came in with a skill set because I had done lots of those kinds of transactions in the big law firm.

And so it was perfect for me. So I was able to transition. I take advantage of my legal skills. And then learn the things that you have to learn in telecom and corporate development. It's kind of an interesting, interesting role because that's primarily what you look at other companies that you might like to buy or partnerships that make good sense.

And so it was just interesting for me.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, that's really, really cool. That's actually something that kind of falls into the business development space now as well, where we're always kind of on the lookout for for partnerships that make sense. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. All right. Well, so after Sprint you know, I mean, that was just another foray and then you were into the tech industry, weren't you?

Steve Monk: That's right. So from there, when I was at Sprint we got this opportunity or somebody exposed us to this company in Calgary called CyberSurf. And CyberSurf's model was that they offered free internet. And so it was dial up internet at the time. And so they had installation CDs and you could install their software and then you've got free dial up internet.

And then they had developed proprietary technology at the time that we said was like television advertising. So you could kind of run ads that would be nothing today, but at the time they were kind of unique video style ads. And then they had what we called billboards that was kind of like a traditional banner advertising.

So what happened would be that if you took advantage of the free service, you got free internet, but a portion of your screen got occupied by what we call the smart advertising module. And then in this module, we could run these commercials, both the dynamic ones and the static ones. So it was a really interesting model, a really interesting company.

Sprint Canada or call net. I really, I worked at the parent company of Sprint Canada called call net. We made an investment in that company and I kind of led that investment. And so when I was going through that process, the CEO of CyberSurf said to me, why don't you come and join our company? And so I did.

And so that was a great opportunity to kind of be on a board of directors and be at this you know, I call it a startup, but we had 40 million dollars. That we had raised. So it was kind of a, you know, kind of an advanced startup and it was a public company as well. So we had about a hundred million dollar market cap.

So it was a great company. And then what happened was we could never monetize the business. We just couldn't we had 600, 000 subscribers, which was quite successful. And we had some great partnerships, including with Canada Post. And with Canada Post, we had co branded a CD. With Canada Post branding that said on it, absolutely free internet for life, which I think is a pretty bold promise.

And so if you can get Canada Post to sign up for a partnership like that, I've always thought, you know, you can do anything. Yeah, because that's a transaction that in retrospect just doesn't make any sense, but they did it. And so, yeah, it was a great ride. But at the end, like I said, we couldn't monetize it because.

600, 000 customers wasn't enough for the big advertisers. And so we turned it into a pay model. We kind of got it to break even, but it was never going to be the success that we all imagined. And so it was a good time for me to leave. So I left and I joined a global publishing company and software company.

Called Wolters Kluwer.

Kelly Kennedy: Okay. So, you know, I mean, your time at CyberSurf too, would it coincided with the dot com boom or burst? Sorry, the bubble burst. Did that?

Steve Monk: Yeah, the boom and the bust. Yeah, the boom and the bust. So, it was an interesting time. I remember the Super Bowl that, or in one of the years I was there, there was a tech company That ran an ad and it was just a chimpanzee dancing.

And then at the end of the ad, one minute, they just said there, we just blew 10 million. And it was just like, you know, it was a crazy time where companies were getting funded to, you know, massive amounts and people were spending on things like that. And it just wasn't sustainable. And I think it's good when you go through those kinds of periods in your life.

Because then you realize that there are booms and there are busts. I think, you know, I think about Calgary, for example, where there have been a lot of those. And, you know, it's good to know in bad times that good times are coming, and it's good to know in good times that they won't last forever. And you know, then you can, when you've been through some of these things, you realize that, you know, it's all going to be fine.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. No, I agree. You know what I mean? It's like growing up in Alberta. It's just a cycle. You know, we know we have good times and we know they're always followed by a challenging time. So absolutely. I totally agree.

Steve Monk: That's right. It's like the Oilers, right? Yeah, glory days.

Kelly Kennedy: There's a few more challenging times.

Steve Monk: Yeah. And, but now, you know, on the, on the cusp, I think of a more glory days. So, you know, good times are coming.

Kelly Kennedy: I think so. In all fairness, though, as Edmontonians, we're eternally optimistic because we have no choice.

Steve Monk: Well, that's good. That's good. I'm a Toronto fan and I think it's the same. And so if you think you have been eternally optimistic, I would say there are others.

Who have been optimistic for a longer time with with no pay off.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, for sure. For sure. So take us, take us to the

Steve Monk: next step. Yeah. So Wolters Kluwer, it was a great job because I got to run the business in Canada and I did that for about a dozen years. And so for me, that was the first time where I really got to lead a team.

And when you do that, you know, you really realize you know, how important it is to have a good team and how difficult it is to be a good leader. And you, you know, you look back and you think about things that you could have done better and you should have done better, but having said that a great global company, so I got to be involved with other businesses around the world that were all part of the same family.

And you know, it was really a great time. And I really enjoyed that period because like I said, I got to run a business within a much larger business. And so I got to, you know experience a bit of what it's like to be an entrepreneur without really having all of the you know the risk and you know, the, the the stresses that go.

When you're actually, you know, the owner of the business yourself.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. And so at this point too, you've had lots of experience in that tech space. Like you've kind of, your, your whole career has transitioned to lead you up to the next logical step, hasn't it?

Steve Monk: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I always think that the things you do in your past are going to be useful for your future.

Yes. And so I never think like, you know, I would say to people that I'm a, you know, a failed engineer and a failed lawyer. And I say it kind of tongue in cheek but it's, you know, it's the truth in some ways. It's not the career that I pursued for my for my whole life. But I think those things gave me great learnings that then you can leverage as you go forward.

And so, you know, if I was asked, would you do it differently? Would you not, you know, study engineering? I would, I wouldn't, I would say no, no, no, that was, you know, that was a great path for me. Yes. And even though it didn't necessarily succeed, it was useful. And, you know, it provided lots of learnings that I could then use, you know, in things I've done since then.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, I would agree 100%. I've, you know, I mean, I've interviewed enough guests now on this show to see a pattern. And the pattern is, is that if you look at the trajection of almost every high level executive or CEO's career path, everything that they learned in the beginning led them to where they stand today, good or bad, you know, failure or success.

It's all building the person that you are to become, which is super cool. And it's something that I had not expected when I started this show. But you know what I mean? Now it's gotten to the point where I've interviewed so many high level executives like yourself that there does seem to be a pattern in it.

Steve Monk: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yes. I saw that you're, I think this may be your 66th show, but I'm not sure. But you know, that's amazing. That is amazing. Like what a testament to your vision and your hard work. And so congratulations on that. That's really amazing. And yeah, to go back to your point about failure.

Yeah, I totally believe that it's the failures that you learn the most from and like, I'm not afraid of the word failure. Sometimes people are, you know, a bit shy to use that term, but for me, I think no, no, no people fail all the time and it's totally fine. And I remember my my son came in yesterday, I think, and he had just come home from a rugby game, and they, it was actually a tournament, and they had lost all of their games, and he was, you know, quite downtrodden, and I said, you know, his name's A.

J., I said, A. J., you know, you're going to learn a lot more. From the games you lose than from the games that are easy victories. So, you know, I know it feels bad to lose. Nobody likes losing, but you know, you'll take more from that than you will from those easy wins, and I just think that's the way it goes with everyone in their lives.

The wins are always nice, but it's the losses that kind of toughen you up and and give you learnings that, you know, you can use to win the next time.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, agreed. I always think it's a perspective thing. You know, I mean, you can choose to put whatever value on, on a loss or a perceived loss as you like.

You can also flip the script and say, this was a win because I learned something and it just depends on how you want to look at it.

Steve Monk: Yeah, I totally agree, Kelly. And that's where I always think that when you have experiences that are difficult, like I kind of think about them as tuition, like whatever effort you put into it, it's tuition for your education.

Yeah. And so like, that's a win. Like, you know, you got the education of the real world. And so, you know, and when things go badly, I think, you know, it's part of the human existence. And, and yeah, it's, it's going to happen. And so, you know, those are really in some ways rich experiences and rich experiences don't have to be good They just have to, you know, give you a visceral feeling about what you're going through.

Yeah. And I think a lot of times, the ones you remember are when it's really tough. Yes. And you know, those are, those are good things to go through.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. There is, there is something in pain that leaves a lasting mark, doesn't it?

Steve Monk: Yeah, for sure. And like, if you think back on your own life, you'll probably remember the times that were most difficult.

Yes. Very clearly. And maybe some of the times that were easy, you don't remember as clearly. Sure. So those times are good ones. And you know, after you make it through the storm, then you do feel like you're a bit stronger than you were before. And you know, like when we were talking about boom and bust, you know that in the times that are boom times, be careful.

Because, you know in all likelihood, there are going to be tough times ahead. And then you can also take some comfort in the fact that you made it through before. Yeah. And so, you know hopefully you've got what it takes to make it through the next time.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I, I definitely try. I've gotten to the point in my life now where it's like when things don't go how I want it to, what I try to do is look for the positive.

What is the lesson that I learned and how do I not repeat this problem again? And I think the more often that we can find ways to not repeat the same challenge or to make the same mistake. Yeah. The better off we're going to be down the line. And it's just that it's that leading to the next logical step.

Like we discussed earlier, you know what I mean? You learned lessons in the pain that made you better at your future performance and whatever else you chose to pursue. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Absolutely. Well, take us to cognition.

Steve Monk: Yeah. So Cognition after I left Wolters Kluwer, it got acquired by another company.

And when that happened, they did not need another CEO to run the business in Canada. So I was looking for my next adventure and I had a good friend who I'd known from from Sprint Canada, Callnet .Who had started this disruptive legal services model called Cognition. Yeah. And then it later became called Caravel.

And so that is a a disruptive legal services model not too similar to the company that I run now. And it was a great opportunity to, to realize that even though I felt like I was no longer in the law when I left being a lawyer, that many of my jobs had a connection to the law. And so to go and manage a legal business.

Made a lot of sense for me. Yeah. So that's how I got to to cognition, which then became Caravel.

Kelly Kennedy: Sure. So bring us into the disruption part. You know, I, I wanna touch on this because one of the statements that you have on your website is that traditional law is broken. And that's a pretty bold statement.

What, what brought you to that conclusion?

Steve Monk: Well, you know, it's interesting because you had spoken about you know, entrepreneurs and starting business and how should think about getting legal support started. The traditional legal system does not work well for them, and it also doesn't work well for the lawyers.

So my story about being frankly miserable when I worked in a big law firm is not a rare story. So I think if you speak with lawyers, you might often find that they don't really enjoy what they're doing. And so in many cases, you've got a system where the customers are not happy and the employees are not happy.

The lawyers... And so, you know, I would say that if you have a bargain and one side's happy and the other side's unhappy, that just means someone struck a bad bargain. But if you have a bargain and both sides are unhappy. Then that means there has to be something better. And so there's room for disruption.

So creating a model within you know, saying traditional law is broken and creating an alternative that's better for customers and better for lawyers. That's the whole goal of a CEO law. And like you said, at the outset, the CEO is an acronym for customer employee owner, because I really believe that if you want to build a great business, start by making sure you have happy customers.

And then to have happy customers, you have to have happy employees. And then owners should come last because I believe that if you have happy customers and happy employees, you're always going to have happy owners because you'll have a great business. And that might sound obvious. Big law firms are not built in that manner.

They're built the opposite. They really are built around the the good fortunes of the partners. So everything's kind of structured for the partners to make. You know, as much money as possible. Yeah. And then the employees, the lawyers and people, other people in the, in the firm, like clerks or, or executive assistants, they're treated rather badly.

And, and the lower you go in the pecking order, the worse you're treated. Yeah. And so, you know, you're kind of tolerated when you get down lower in the, in the hierarchy. And then the customers, I think get a bad. They just get a bad experience. So if you're a small company and you go to a big law firm, I used to say, although people maybe travel, travel less now, but you drive downtown.

If it's Toronto, you're going to park under the building and pay, you know, 50 an hour for parking. You're going to take the elevator up to the ivory tower. You're going to sit there for an hour waiting for somebody to give you an audience. When they come in, they're going to charge you 1, 000 an hour or more.

They don't really want to do your work in the first place. And then they're going to give the work to a junior. Because, you know, you're not going to you're not going to get their attention unless you're spending millions of dollars. So it's going to be somebody junior who's going to do your work.

And to me, that's just a horrible... Experience for the customer that they get disrespected. And so I think there's room to create something better. And so you know, when you talk about entrepreneurs, including yourself, and you don't use lawyers, I think it's because you probably believe that it's an evil.

To be avoided if possible. Yeah. And I would say if there's a better alternative, then you would use a lawyer. And I think that you should. And so it's about trying to create that better alternative so that the options of you know, a traditional law firm, which you don't want to use because it's too expensive.

Or doing it yourself, which you may not do because you don't really have the expertise to do it. Instead, the option becomes do nothing. Yeah. And doing nothing for legal support is really a bad idea and will get you in trouble eventually. And so, you know, it's just a bit of creating an alternative that will work well for business operators so that they actually can get legal support.

Kelly Kennedy: I love this. And I love this for a reason because, you know, Steve, I think, I don't think it's just that people are like, Oh, I don't want to deal with lawyers. I think we've all had crappy experiences by the time we're, you know, 35, 40 years old, whatever way you want to look at it, whether it be with a personal lawyer or God knows what, maybe a real estate deal or whatever.

We've all had experiences that put a sour taste in our mouth. If a firm like yours, like CEO law can work to bridge that and say, look, you know, we don't want to be this horrible, scary thing. We want to be a partner, a collaborative friend in this process for you. And we're going to do that by flipping law on its head and doing things completely differently.

It's incredibly admirable. And I'm very thankful that you're out there trying to do this.

Steve Monk: Well, I mean, thanks for that. Thanks for that. I appreciate that, Kelly. I mean, we are trying to we identified a pain point and we're trying to make things better. And I mean it when I say we're trying to create something better for the customer and then something that's better for the lawyers.

And in all honesty, when you're an entrepreneur and your entrepreneurs in the audience would know this, you know, you put in a lot of hard work and we are no different. And you know, the rewards to the owners they take a long time and they may not come at all. And so I do think when entrepreneurs try and address a pain point you know, if they're going to be successful, it's because they do have a real belief.

That there's something that should be better. And so that's what we're trying to do. And we mean it when we say it starts with trying to make it better for the customers. And then, yeah, find something that will work better for lawyers as well.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, well, we definitely have lawyers listening to the show.

There's no question on that. I think one of the things that I, I want to understand, obviously, if the goal here is to create a better ecosystem, a better work experience for both, for both employees and for customers, you're having to essentially shake up the culture of law, is really what you're having to do.

Because even if you're bringing in, Lawyers from other law firms, they're used to a different structure. So explain to me what are some of the techniques you guys are using to to create a more balanced life?

Steve Monk: So I would say, you know, giving lawyers the freedom to choose whether they want to do work or not is really a key element.

So in a big law firm, somebody will drop work on your, on your desk and say, you have to do it. There is no choice involved, and it will disrupt your life, so it will take away your weekends, and it will take away your holidays, and it will take away time that you would otherwise spend with your, you know, your friends and your family.

In our model, we never do that. We ask the lawyers when we get presented with work, we ask the lawyers if they would like to do it. And then if they say yes, then that's when they you know, that's when the quality levels kick in and the service levels kick in and they have to deliver a great experience for our customers.

But they have the opportunity to say no. And then the other thing we do, which is good for the lawyers when they leave the big firms, they lose access to the machine that will deliver them work. And so for many, a big issue is sales and marketing, which they're not good at. And so we do the sales and marketing for them, and then they just have to focus on doing the work.

And that works really well for them because they've got the skills. To do the thing they are good at, which is practicing law, but they don't really have the skills for sales and marketing or technology. We also handle that. And so when you take away those things and let them just do the work that they are expert at doing, then you create a good model for the employees.

Kelly Kennedy: And I just want to say, you know, when, when we were kind of doing this introduction for CEO law, and I was going through some of the stats. You guys aren't even six years old. I think you're just coming up on six years. Over a thousand clients. That is impressive by any standard. That's amazing.

Congratulations.

Steve Monk: Oh, well, thank you very much for that. I appreciate it. Yeah, we've got some big clients like Staples and Panasonic and Interact. We work with MNP in Alberta, which we're really proud of. We work with the B. C. Securities Commission in B. C. and with Sask Energy in Saskatchewan. So we've got big clients right across Canada.

But we have, yeah, well over a thousand smaller companies. And yeah, I think that's where you can really make a difference. Because those are the companies that really need to find a better option and to find someone they trust. And so, you know, they, that's what our customers have done. They've trusted us to help them.

And we're grateful for that.

Kelly Kennedy: It incredibly speaks to the need for your service. It really does. Like, you know, if your service is not in demand, you do not gain a thousand clients over over a five and a half or six year term. It, it really shows that what you were doing is valued, needed, and you were truly driving change.

So, you know, I mean, it's, it's a measure of success. No question.

Steve Monk: Well, thank you. It's kind of like 66 podcast episodes, right? It's a slow build and yeah, these, these numbers are helpful to measure your journey. And so, yeah, we've got grand ambitions ahead where we'd like to get to 10, 000 customers.

And that's what we've always said about, yeah, you know, we're on our way and I'm kind of a believer in doubling as well. So most people would say at a thousand, you're 10 percent of the way to your journey. But I don't really believe that I believe in doubling. So I think if I take exercise for an example you know, the first time is really hard and then the second time I would say is equal to the first time.

Like that's really difficult, but then to double from there and go from two to four, I would say is probably easier than that first time. And then to go from four to eight and eight to 16 and so on and so forth. So I kind of feel like, you know, we had to get a hundred customers and then we had to get to 200.

That was the second doubling. And then we had to get to 400. That was the third doubling. And then 800 gets to, to four doublings. And then if you take a thousand and and double that four times, you go to 2000, 4,000. 8,000. 16,000. So I kind of say, we're halfway . We're halfway or more to our journey. And like I really believe that.

Yes, I really believe it. Kelly, I think same for you. I would say, you know, that first podcast episode, you know, You have to get out there and do it and, you know, recognize it's not going to be perfect, but, you know, take the plunge. Yeah. And then you have to do that second one. And I just think by now you've built tremendous momentum and you'll be able to ride that momentum.

And so, you know, I, you know, I think all of these things to me, I really believe it.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I, you know, and, and especially in the beginning, you don't know what, what the results are going to be. You just. You have an idea and you hope for the best, right?

Steve Monk: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And that's, you know, a tremendous testament to you.

But now you're at 66 and clearly what's happening is that, you know, you've generated a lot of interest and a lot of success and what you're doing is resonating with people. And so, you know, kudos to you.

Kelly Kennedy: Thank you so much. Yeah. What's actually super cool is yeah, you're right today. We're actually just at 67, but we're your episode.

We're actually recording episode is 74. That's how far ahead in guests. Now we're recording. We've been so fortunate that we actually have a waiting list now to mid November. Which absolutely blows my mind. I just, I could have never expected that it would end up here.

Steve Monk: That's spectacular. Again, congratulations to you.

It's really great.

Kelly Kennedy: Thank you so much. Yeah, I love what I do. I think that's really what it is, Steve. I genuinely love business development. I love this topic. I love entrepreneurship. And so for me. Like I'm in my element in this place. I love these conversations. I'm learning just as much from you as everyone else is learning.

And I truly believe that. And I'm genuinely curious and, and I just, I find it amazing. I love listening to the stories of people such as yourself because they're so impressive and they always allow not just me, but our listeners to think, Oh man, like that's someplace that we could go. That's the next step that we could take.

That's something that we have missed. There's. There's amazing information in each one of these shows, and it's all due to guests like you. So thank you so much.

Steve Monk: Yeah, well, you can really hear it in your voice, Kelly. You can really tell that you're enthusiastic and that you're engaged. And I'm, you know, I'm sure that that's a big part of your success, that it just shines through, that you love what you're doing.

And, you know, clearly you're trying to help people. And so, you know, I always think that That kind of passion and that kind of you know foundation and trying to help people, you know, those are great elements to success.

Kelly Kennedy: Thank you. Thank you. I agree. I agree. I think if you start with, how do you help somebody?

The money always comes, the rest always follows, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, if you're delivering value to people, value is going to come back to you, but you need to always focus on how can you help.

Steve Monk: Yeah, absolutely, I agree.

Kelly Kennedy: So, you know, I really wanted to take this episode, Steve, you are an expert, you know, you're an expert in, in legal matters, you're an expert in a lot of things, but, but one of the things that I wanted to talk about on this show is definitely legal matters, okay?

So. You know, we're talking to a lot of entrepreneurs, Steve, who don't know anything about the legal field other than if I get into trouble, I know I need to find a lawyer. If I'm doing up corporate documents, I know I need to find a lawyer. But there needs to be more to it than that, right? There's more to it than that.

How do we help these people? What should new businesses be considering? Not just new businesses, medium sized, large businesses that don't have full time legal support. And that maybe they're not even thinking about it. They're not thinking about it because they don't know what challenges they could face.

They don't know what's out there. And usually by the time they do know, they're already in some serious trouble. How can we help these people today?

Steve Monk: Yeah, I think that's right. And it goes back to my comment about people often don't use lawyers because they think it's an evil and they would prefer to avoid that.

Experience and you said yourself that often people have had painful experiences with lawyers, or maybe those experiences are around events that are painful. So I would say maybe that happens more often in what I'll call personal law. Like, if you're going through a breakup of your marriage, that's a painful experience.

And it may be, you know, that your interaction with your lawyer is not one that brings back fond memories. But with business, I would say it's different. And I would say that. Okay. There are things that you should do that will help you to build a better business. And so when I talk to entrepreneurs, and that's a great place to start, my first question is always around incorporation.

Did you incorporate your business? In many cases, people will say no, if they're just starting, or they might ask, why would I do that? And the answer is primarily around limiting your liability. So if you run a business, say it's a painting company. If you run a painting company, and you just do it as a sole proprietorship, And so the you know, it kind of goes through your name and you have a GST number, but you're not incorporated.

If there's an issue and you get sued, let's say one of your painters slips and falls on the site and they're hurt and they sue if you're not incorporated, they have access to your personal assets. So your bank account, your house, your car, those things are at risk because they can be used to pay the award of damages To the party that's made a claim against you.

If you have an incorporation, then they can only sue the company. They can't sue you directly. So it makes great sense to incorporate. And I would always say you should incorporate your business for that reason. There can be tax benefits as well. But to me, the primary one is around liability. And then after that, if you if you've gone that far, I asked, do you have a shareholders agreement?

If there's more than one shareholder in the business, and often there is, yeah. And I would say you have to have a shareholders agreement. The shareholders agreement is kind of like a prenup for a company. And so what it does is anticipate what might go wrong between the partners, the shareholders, and then say what will happen in that event.

And if you do that in advance, if things do go sideways, then you've got a document that will say, here's what we do now. So an example might be, say you have a partner, you're both 50 50, and your partner says, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to sell my shares to someone, and that someone is a person you don't like.

And you don't want to work with if you don't have a shareholders agreement, they can do that. If you do, then there may be provisions that say in the event your partner wants to sell, here's what we're going to do. Or another example would be something called a shotgun clause. Doesn't sound very nice, but it's, you know, that's the name that's been applied.

It's a bit when you have those two partners and somebody wants to leave the business. In that instance, what a shotgun clause says is that you can go to your partner and you can say, I want to buy your shares and I will give you X. When you make that offer, you don't know whether you're the buyer or the seller.

So that's what makes it that's what gives you the incentive to make it a fair offer. So let's say I say you know, I want to buy your shares for a million dollars. You know, the, the, the other side might say no, I'm not going to sell you my shares, but I'll buy you yours for a million dollars.

And if you think they were really worth 5 million, then you just did yourself a disservice. So like a shotgun clause goes into a shareholder's agreement. It's a great idea because it will make people be fair. If they want to make an offer to buy or sell shares, so shareholders agreement comes second, in my opinion, and then after that, you think about the fundamentals of the company.

So if you're going to have workers, then you should have a properly drafted employment agreement, or if they're contractors, you should have a properly drafted contractor agreement. Those are really important. And if you don't have them properly structured, you will get into trouble. And so you should have somebody write them for you.

It will not be a big job. And then you can use them for the life of your company or at least for a long time. Maybe you get them checked periodically. And then if you're going to have developers, if it's a software company, then you should get a development agreement. With the development agreement, the key is to make sure that your intellectual property is owned by you because otherwise you run the risk that the person who does that work might later say, that thing I developed, I own it.

And then if you're trying to raise money later on and you want to get funding, the first thing they're going to ask is if you own the intellectual property that's central to your company. And if your development agreement didn't properly protect you, then the investors may say, I'm not going to invest.

So those are really important around the workers. And then you've got agreements with customers and suppliers. Probably the customer piece is going to be more important. So you should make sure that a lawyer helps you to draft that agreement and make sure that you're properly protected. And then within that, if you sell through the Internet, there's terms and conditions and a privacy policy.

Those things are required. If you have an Internet site, particularly if you sell through the through the Internet, So those would be the next things that I recommend. And then there's, if you're going to have a space. You know, if you're going to lease space or buy space lawyers can help with that transaction and make sure again that you're properly protected.

So now you've kind of got a business where it's incorporated properly. You set things up with your, with your your partners, your other shareholders. You've set things up with your workers. You've set things up with your customers and your suppliers. You have a place to live. Those I would say are the fundamental things that you should look after.

And then it all comes down to, like I said, if you're going to try and attract investors. They're going to want to see that all of these things have been done properly, and so it may be fundamental that you've done these things to get the investment. And then when you do the investment, you should definitely have a law firm to help you through that.

They'll be able to point out the different kinds of ways you can raise money there. You know, you can sell shares, you can you can use debt. You can do something called a safe, which is a simple agreement for future equity. It's kind of a unique model that's in between shares and debt. So there are things like that, that lawyers can help you through, and you should have somebody that you trust to do that.

And so if it's somebody that you've worked with up until that point in time, I would say all the better. Because they understand your business and then they can help you through that. And then once the business is up and running, there's going to be all of the things that come with that. You're going to have people who want to renegotiate contracts and put in different terms and things like that.

You're going to have employment issues. You're going to have litigation. People may not pay. You may have other issues like that. And so you're gonna need help along the way with all of that. Maybe it's international work, or maybe you've got some patents, you know, a firm like CEO lock and help with all of that.

And then there's also some things like succession planning. And so after you've run the business for a while. You may be thinking about bringing in someone else. Maybe it's someone in your family or someone else. You can structure things for succession planning so that it's done in the best way for you from a tax perspective and maybe for other reasons as well.

And so there are structures you can set up. You can use holding companies. You can use operating companies. You can use something called a family trust and a family trust is really useful because. You can find ways to flow funds from the business usually to people in your family and do it in a tax efficient way and also do it in a way where those funds are protected.

So if you had a child and they're meant to get funds, and then subsequently they are involved in a divorce. And you want to make sure that their ex spouse doesn't get access to those funds, then a family trust can achieve that purpose. So there's, you know, there's lots of things along the way where people think that lawyers are a necessary evil, but actually we can really help.

To grow your business and to set you up so that you're protected from risk.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes, that's the biggest thing that I'm getting from this is that ultimately, these are all things that you need to protect you, right? These are not, these are not lawyers that are just trying to take your money. They're, they're trying to protect you.

They're trying to implement things into. They're working on your behalf.

Steve Monk: Yeah, that's totally right. And if you have a relationship with a lawyer and you think they don't have their, your interest in heart at heart, and they're just trying to take your money, then I would say you've got the wrong lawyer.

Like that is not supposed to be how it goes. It's supposed to be great. Like, so I always say, pick your lawyer, like you pick a restaurant. So if you think about a restaurant, your favorite restaurant, they got to have great food. If they don't have great food, you're not going there. And then next is the price.

If they're too expensive, you just don't go there very often. But if they give you great value, you know, great food for a fair price, and you think that that's good value, I'm going back there. But then the last thing is always the service. Because if you go to your restaurant and you get crappy service, you'll never go back.

You know, if they make you feel like you're a nuisance, you'll never go back. And so, to me, a lawyer is the same. They have to have great education and skills. This is a good, good food part. They have to be able to do the things that you need to have done and you have, you know, it's the highest quality. And then value is really important.

So if they have a better price point, then that's really important. You know, get a great lawyer for a great price point. So it's good value. And then this part about respect and giving good service. To me, super important. So if you feel like they don't have your interest at heart and they don't listen to you and they're not responsive and they just send a bill, then I would say that's the wrong lawyer.

And I would say that for all of your relationships, you know, teachers, doctors, people who you don't typically say, like, I'm going to hold you to a standard. I think you should. And particularly people where it's a direct commercial relationship, you should say, I'm the customer and you have to give me a great experience or I'm going somewhere else.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah, no, I agree 100%. And then, you know, I mean, what you're talking about isn't really unheard of, like in business, if you don't give good service, or you don't deliver on what you say you're going to deliver on, it's pretty unlikely people are going to continue to work with you. And it should be kind of the same thing on the professional services side.

Steve Monk: It should be, but there are examples where that doesn't exist. And so I would say with your doctor, you know, people feel like, well, I don't pay for them. And so I can accept, you know, less than great service. And I would say that's not true. We do pay we pay through our taxes and you have every right to expect a great experience.

Our teachers, same thing. We pay through our taxes. And I think, you know, we have every reason to say I expect a great education system for my children. And it goes the same with lawyers, because I think all too often people have gone on bended knee to their lawyers to, you know, beg for help, and it should not be that way.

You're the customer, the lawyer should be responsive to you and give you a great experience or else you should go somewhere else.

Kelly Kennedy: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Steve. Take me through you know, a process like you guys are doing things differently at CEO law. It is not your typical legal experience. Let's say that a customer has found you.

Can you run us through the interaction or the process flow?

Steve Monk: Yeah. So it's it's pretty simple. Typically, if somebody comes to us, they will speak with me and then I'll try and determine who's the best lawyer for them to work with. And then they will get to meet that lawyer usually on a Zoom call.

And that gives them a sense to that gives them an opportunity to learn more about the lawyer. And then also the lawyer gets to confirm that they are a good fit for that customer. And then at the end of that call, If the client wants to go ahead, if they agree that, yes, this is the right person to help me, then they have to get on boarded as a client.

And so with us, we do that using technology. So we would send them a link they use that link to fill in the information we have to gather. And then the, the lawyer is notified that that process has been completed and work can begin. That's a law society thing. We have to get that process completed.

So that we can serve the client. It's it doesn't create an obligation on the client. It's what we need so that we can work with the client. And another part of our service is that we don't take retainers. So at the outset, we don't ask people for money. We do take a credit card number as a form of guarantee, but we don't ask people for money.

We just do the work and then we send them an invoice. So that's a bit nicer. And then once they start working with us, they get access to a platform that we've built over the last six years. And it's been a very expensive thing for us to build, and it's meant to make a better experience for the customers.

So it's meant to make things more connected and responsive and transparent. And so it does things like show the customer the work product. And so by, by having access to what the lawyer is doing for you, most fundamentally you can see work is happening. So that's important. But you can also read things if you want.

You can collaborate with the lawyer through the platform. But for most people, all they really want to know is that work is happening. Yeah. So that's great transparency. And then the same on the billing side. So for us, we send an invoice every week to keep people up to speed, but better than that, through the platform, they can see when a lawyer's made an entry of time, the second the lawyer makes that entry.

So it's about taking away that potential awful surprise that the lawyer has run up some bill that was much, much more than you ever anticipated. So if you think about that relationship, those are two key elements, you know, what's happening with my work, are things being done and how much has it cost me so far?

And so to me, that's kind of an important element of trying to create a more respectful relationship. And so that, you know, those are good examples of how we do it. To try and make the experience for the customers a better one.

Kelly Kennedy: I love the transparency. I think going into it that way and saying, look, we're not going to shock you.

You're going to be able to follow along with us to see what steps we're out in the process. I absolutely love it. And I love that you guys have found a way to use technology to your advantage in this way.

Steve Monk: Yeah, for sure. And then I guess I forgot to mention with us. Our hourly rate is 295 an hour. So that is dramatically better than what you typically find in the marketplace, especially for the kinds of lawyers that we have.

So most of our lawyers are very senior, often with 20 years experience or more. They generally have been in the biggest law firms in Canada, generally at the partner level. So you're getting a great lawyer that way. And they often have worked in business. And so they've got better context for what you really need.

So to get all of that for 295 an hour is compared to like many of our lawyers would have charged well over 1, 000 an hour when they were in these big firms. So it's it's exceptional value. And then it also comes with the guarantee that the lawyer that you speak with. Will actually do your work. So I had mentioned before that in the big firms It's quite typical that you'll speak with a senior lawyer and they'll charge you for that conversation But then they'll give the work to a junior who may not really know what they're doing Yeah, they likely will be bright and hard working, but they may not really know what they're doing So that's not a great experience for you.

So it's far better value if you can get a senior lawyer With great experience, big firm, worked in a company, will do the work, and then if the price is 2. 95 an hour, that's often cheaper than a clerk in the big firms.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. Because you're paying for experience. And that's what a lot of people don't tend to realize when they're dealing with professionals is that if you get somebody who's done it a thousand times, they can do it in much, much less time than somebody who hasn't, even if they're cheaper.

Steve Monk: Absolutely. Absolutely. And if you can get that person at a lower price point, all the better. But I agree with you, Kelly. I always say that nobody wants a cheap lawyer or nobody wants a cheap professional. What you really want is a great professional at a lower price so that it's great value.

Kelly Kennedy: Yes. Yes. No, I love it.

Are you only within Canada or can international customers work with you?

Steve Monk: Yeah, so we have one lawyer who resides in the U. S. He's licensed in B. C. and Ontario and New York and just wrote the California bar so he can do U. S. work and we have other lawyers who also are licensed in the U. S. but don't live there.

Okay, so we can do U. S. work, which is most common. And then many of our lawyers, because they've worked in these big firms, Okay. They have great experience with international transactions, so we can support work all around the world. And that's typically what would happen if you're in Edmonton and you go to a law firm.

It's unlikely that they'll have a branch and, you know, in Europe or in South America, but if they have experience with transactions that involve those places, then that's what you really need. And then sometimes you have to get local counsel from from those places. But often you don't, so yeah, I would say that in general, we can support international work.

Kelly Kennedy: Very cool. Very cool. 65 percent of our audience is in North America, so that's an easy one, but you know, that still leaves a pretty big broad stroke for international, and I'm sure they're finding this interesting.

Steve Monk: Wow, that's pretty cool. You know, again impressive, Kelly. That's great.

Kelly Kennedy: Thank you very much.

Yeah, no, this has been amazing. If people want to get ahold of you, Steve, they want to work with CEO Law. What's the best way to do that? Yeah, for sure.

Steve Monk: You can reach out to me by email is the best. I am steve@clawcanada.com. I'm on LinkedIn, so I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, so you can find me there as well.

And then my phone number is (416) 712-7838. So you can always give me a call. And really if you check it's. 416 712 and then Steve, S T E V E so you can give me a call.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. Amazing. This has been episode 74 of the Business Development Podcast. We have been graced with the founder and CEO of CEO Law, Steve Monk, educating us and flipping the industry on its head.

It's been an absolute pleasure having you, Steve. Thank you for coming.

Steve Monk: Well, Kelly, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Kelly Kennedy: Amazing. Until next time. We'll catch you on the flip side.

Outro: This has been the business development podcast with Kelly Kennedy. Kelly has 15 years in sales and business development experience within the Alberta oil and gas industry and founded his own business development firm in 2020.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development. The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your Business Development Specialists. For more, we invite you to the website @ www.capitalbd.ca. See you next time on the Business Development Podcast.